0:00

And welcome to another exciting episode of the much love podcast.

Today, my guest is Isa Watson, self-described as a Caribbean girl in America, Isa is a sports tech entrepreneur, author, skydiver and classical pianist.

She is the founder and CEO of Squad and Next Gen. sports fan engagement tool.

0:20

Named the Top 100 MIT Alumni in Tech in 2021, ISA is using tech and sports to strengthen the connective tissue of humanity.

Now before I get into the conversation, I want to frame why I asked ISA to be a guest and why I'm thrilled that she said yes First.

0:36

I've been following ISA on Twitter and I find myself liking a lot of what she posts.

Not in an echo chamber, self reinforcing kind of way, but a true appreciation for her ability to leave weave logic and emotion into very useful snippets of her thought process.

0:52

I did a little more digging and I went on her website.

I resonate with her three constants, her 100% commitment to her vision, her dedication to keeping it real, and her responsibility to help make this world a better place.

All things that I strive for.

And finally, ISA possesses a skill I find sorely missing in modern discourse.

1:11

The ability to hold multiple points of view seemingly at odds that actually coexist rather beautifully.

So with that long winded intro, I'm super excited to welcome ISA Watson.

Thanks for having me, Nate.

Now this is this is really incredible.

I reached out to you kind of cold on Twitter and you were gracious and responded.

1:29

I'm really curious to know why did you agree to come on the show and what was interesting about it?

You know, I am on podcasts a lot and I've done a lot of these interviews and they've all centered around business and personal journey.

But, and I've and I've tended to avoid political topics, I tended to avoid topics.

1:50

I feel risky topics where, you know, you can get snippets and they can go viral and then you're cancelled, right.

But I just think that we're in a place right now where everybody is kind of going to their respective communities and being siloed and kind of operating in the silo and not listening to each other.

2:09

And so I said, you know, if if I'm going to break my trend at any point, now is the time because I I do think it's important for us to have more productive conversations and conversations like you said that whole multiple views without it being like there's side A and there's side.

2:31

BI love that.

I I believe 100% in that same line of thinking you mentioned avoiding D for political topics, certainly wanting to avoid things that could get you canceled.

What made the topics that I reached out about interesting enough to you where you felt it was worth discussing now and it worth kind of breaking down these silos?

2:50

Yeah, I think the state, you know, there there's a lot of facts that, you know stand true today.

One, there's been a dramatic rise in anti-Semitism across this country and across the globe.

There's also been a dramatic rise in Islamophobia in this country and across the globe.

3:11

There's been a lot of division and the way that people are talking about the world affairs.

When I say world affairs, I'm talking about what's going on with Hamas and Israel.

I'm talking about what's going on with Palestine.

And so I I just felt like, you know, now was the time to just see if we could actually have a more productive conversation because I feel like the conversations are getting worse.

3:39

You know, it started this all started on October 7th.

And over the last two months, I've just seen a lot more radicalization.

I've seen a lot more people going to their corners.

I've seen a lot more people less willing to engage in conversation.

3:55

And so I, I, I just, it's it's also a little bit heartbreaking because I feel like it's kind of, you know, rupturing the connective tissue of our society.

Yeah.

So tissue sounds important to you just based on, you know, the way you describe what your mission and purpose is in this world.

4:11

Yeah, it is because I think that, you know, connection is actually one of the fundamental needs of life.

I think our connection and our abilities to connect has dramatically lowered with the emergence of social media and smartphones.

And when you think about when you look at like how much time you spend on smartphones and how loneliness has grown, depression, anxiety, lack of social integration, all those things are very directly correlated to each other.

4:41

And I think that also another thing that we're doing in this topic in particular is that we're talking about it in snippets.

You know, 140 characters, 280 characters, and these are nuanced topics that you know deserve more than 280 characters to be able to express yourself.

I.

Totally believe that.

4:58

When you tweeted that, you've been outspoken about all kinds of whether they're marginalized or a moment where a group is being attacked, you specifically mentioned Black Lives Matter, stop, Asian Hate.

There were a few other groups that you said you've been vocal about, and when you were outspoken about anti-Semitism, you got the most blowback.

5:21

I'm curious to to like understand why you think that is and what were some of the things that were being hurled at you or things people were saying to you in response for your support?

You know, quite frankly, on the Jewish side, I was surprised by the response too, because I got a lot of DMS being like, Oh my God, thank you.

5:43

And it was almost to the extent that it was clear that a lot of the Jewish people who reached out to me and said thank you, they felt really alone and they felt whether unseen, attacked or whatever.

But the the, the wave of that response and magnitude of it, that was also surprising.

6:00

I was like, wow, there's there's clearly a loneliness that that the community is feeling right now.

On the other side, the people who kind of, like attacked me for speaking up against anti-Semitism, it was very much, it was very much tied to Palestine, I think, or people's feelings and empathy with what's going on in Palestine and in Gaza specifically.

6:28

And so I think that was part of it.

I think another.

And honestly, by the way, I don't even know, like, like I'm still processing like that level of blowback.

I literally had to go private for a while, let things cool off and then go public again, right.

6:43

And so, you know, I think it was, you know, I think people took my speaking up against anti-Semitism as me being against, you know, what was happening in in Gaza.

And that's actually not my perspective at all.

7:00

Like I actually, I think that there are multiple troops that can hold.

At one time, October 7th was a horrendous day.

There were several 100 Israeli innocent Israelis that lost their lives and that should not have happened.

7:17

Also, I think what's going on in Gaza in the war right now and thousands of kids losing their lives, I think that's also wrong, you know, And so I think that when I spoke up against anti-Semitism in that moment, a lot of people were like, oh, you must be OK with with what's going on in Gaza.

7:37

And I that wasn't my perspective at all, right.

But again, there's 280 characters.

I was expressing one particular view and people assumed that they knew my complete view.

Yeah, you know, I'm actually guilty of making assumptions.

During that time, I could speak for myself in my own experience.

7:54

I woke up on October 7th, checked my phone, saw in several group chats that shit was popping off in Israel, and in my mind was like, oh, it's just another Friday because every now and then on Fridays they launch rockets in Israel.

It's just kind of a reality.

But I go and I sit down on the toilet and I'm reading a little more and I'm like, oh, I think this is more than just a couple rockets.

8:15

I just saw 5000 rockets.

And then I start hearing about what happened on the ground.

I start hearing about paratroopers.

Now, mind you, my wife and I were planning to go to Israel three days later, and it was going to be her first time ever going.

So like, my whole experience was, oh, maybe my wife isn't going to feel safe going to Israel.

8:33

And then all of a sudden, I don't think they're going to even let us in the country right now.

It's like that was my context.

So I could definitely agree a lot of us were feeling very lonely and isolated.

But also I made a lot of assumptions about people's behavior on Twitter somewhere.

We're both connected to John Henry.

8:50

He's a a black guy who's always posting about Judaism and Shabbat.

And I I felt like he's been an ally.

And he was quiet, didn't say anything about October 7th.

And he started saying a lot of stuff that was about the response and very critical of Israel.

And like, I tweeted some pretty angry things at it.

9:06

We had an exchange, but it ended with me coming back the next day and going, you know what?

I made a lot of assumptions about you.

I was in a very emotional place.

I'm sorry, What can I do to make amends to you?

And he ended up following me back.

And, you know, it's been a nice thing.

9:22

So I like, I'm very well aware there's been people overreacting, I guess for you maybe on what's been different with this instance versus other instances.

Why do you think this problem is such so nuanced in such a way that people have a hard time holding these competing ideals?

9:39

Well, I think that when there has been like other hate that's emerged, whether it's, you know, the police brutality of innocent black people in America or even, like the surge of Asian hate and crimes against our Asian American brothers and sisters that we saw during the pandemic.

9:59

There's always kind of, it seems like from a construct perspective, there's one group that is clearly being discriminated against or hated, you know, or hate is directed to them.

And there's no one on the other side of that except the people that hate.

10:16

I think the issue with this particular conflict is that there are two groups involved, right?

And then, you know, so there's there's Israel and then there's Palestine, which have such a long nuance and rough history in general.

10:39

And then there's, you know, the, there's Hamas, and then there's, you know, the Israeli soldiers, Right.

And so I think that it's almost I, I, I despise the fact that we have only two political parties in America.

I think it is stupid.

10:55

I get from an organizational perspective, but I'm actually registered independent because I don't fit squarely into, like, if you're a Democrat, you believe these 32 things.

If you're Republican, you believe these 32 things.

That's not honest like it's it's it's very strange and I think that.

In the primary of whichever one has the candidate I actually like the most, but I'm right there with you and I'm voting down a ticket.

11:16

It's like red, blue, purple, green.

Yeah.

And I think that this, this conflict kind of brought out that two side dynamic.

And again I don't think that there are two sides.

I think that for me specifically I am, I I'm anti Hamas.

11:37

I am you know I have a lot of empathy and feelings and hurt actually in my heart for innocent people that are losing their lives right now.

If you and I think people are like they take a lot of statistics and things like that.

11:53

But right now there's what 15, sixteen, 17,000 people in Gaza that have lost their lives that that's that's pretty significant right.

And so I think that, you know there's this kind of two side, it's been a force two side you know argument when it's actually not a two side argument.

12:13

And I think that that's why, you know, with other, I think that's why with other, you know, with other groups that have experienced hate, we don't really see that because it's kind of like stop attacking Asians, stop killing black people, stop discriminating against LGBT.

12:32

But then it's kind of like oh stop being anti-Semitic.

Oh, so do you think it's like being Islamophobic is OK, like, you know, and so I think that that's, that's where I think.

I think that's water.

I think you've hit on some really good things.

I mean, when I've personally reflected on it, I think that one, it's just exposed how wide the chasm is between people who, like myself, are pro Israel and have a very Jewish perspective on the history of how did we get to where we're at today and people who are pro Palestine and have a very specific history on how did we get to where we're at today and what the gaps are in what we each believe to be true and not true.

13:11

And I think that's even from the most reasonable pro Israel and most reasonable pro Palestine.

And then we've got people way out on the fringes who are making it a challenge for all of us.

But I think that your ability to kind of respect both sides, respect what they're experiencing is really appreciated from an allyship perspective for both groups of people.

13:33

It sounds like in your personal life, you've been able to bridge that gap pretty well.

Well, that's the feedback that I've been given.

You know, I've had a lot of conversations with a lot of my Jewish friends.

When they'll they'll come to me and they'll say, hey, you know, I felt this way about something.

13:48

Somebody said what do you think?

And you know, usually at the end of the conversation it's kind of like you know what I really appreciate how you put that, right.

And we could actually have a conversation without being, not being afraid of being labeled anti-Semitic, not you know, with without being labeled like Islamophobic, et cetera.

14:07

And I think that right now people are just throwing out these labels.

It was it this, this time reminds me of kind of like 10 years ago when in corporate America I was, I used to work at JP Morgan.

People would be like, Oh my God, don't say the R word.

I don't want to be called racist.

You know, it's kind of like, Oh my God, I don't want to be called.

14:24

I don't, I don't know if I can talk to black people because I don't want to be called racist, you know?

And we were just like, you don't need to be afraid of us.

Just don't be racist.

Like you know, it's called.

Good one, right?

And so and so I think that right now there's a lot of label throwing and that also makes the conversation more difficult.

14:43

You know, here's here's also my truth.

I actually think that BB is I don't like his leadership and I do have critiques on certain decisions that Israel has made as a government, right.

14:59

However, that does not make me anti-Semitic.

You know, I have critiques on the United States of America.

I have critiques on the United Kingdom, I have critiques on my home country of Saint Kitts and Nevis.

But I think that I've seen a lot of people from the Jewish side throw that anti-Semitic label at people when they actually have critiques of Israel and IDF.

15:21

And you know even Biden is saying like hey there's indiscriminate bombing going on that's not OK that's not cool.

You know what I'm saying And so people but people we right now we're we're just so label oriented that it's really hard because once you call me if you if I'm like you know I think that I there was a a statement released by I I believe it's the communications officer of Israel last week basically saying that they don't believe in A2 state solution.

15:47

And you know if I can say like hey by the way I think that's messed up and I think that there should be a two state solution solution and I'm and I'm giving that criticism to the government and to BB there.

I can promise you if I tweeted that right now there's going to be people that come in my comments and say you are being anti-Semitic.

16:07

And I think that that just makes the conversations so difficult because Jewish people, as a people and as a community, you know, Israel's right to exist, etcetera, that's that's different than like who's being like, I don't want people calling me Islamophobic because Donald Trump put on a Muslim ban.

16:28

That's crazy.

You know, you can't have like criticism.

No, I definitely get where you're going with that.

I mean in on one hand there is a an important distinction between what does it mean to be anti-Semitic versus what does it mean to be critical of the Israeli government.

16:44

I think what is also been important on the Jewish side is that a lot of people are turning anti Zionism into an anti-Semitic like back door where they could be like, I'm not against Jewish people.

I just don't think Israel has the right to exist and I'm like, well that is actually anti-Semitism disguised as anti Zionism.

17:03

The difference though what you described is I'm being critical of the Israeli government and you can totally be critical of a government without saying the country doesn't have a right to exist.

And that's that's a piece of nuance that's often missed by many folks.

So I I certainly appreciate your clarity on that.

17:20

One of the things you mentioned was Islamophobia, and I have this conflict often with Jews I'm close to because on one hand, I think there's a lot of beauty within the religion of Islam, and there's a lot of people who live devout Muslim lives who are not trying to overthrow Western governments and Western ideals.

17:38

Yet there's also this political ideology that's baked into the very creation of Islam that a lot of people have a hard time separating.

And when we're talking politically versus we're talking freedom of religion, America is the number one place to really have this conflict because we have freedom of religion, but we also have a very unique political system.

17:59

What, what have you kind of seen that has been Islamophobic that you think people can can probably do like maybe change the way they think about to address that And and I'm just kind of curious to understand what your experience has been seeing arising Islamophobia.

Yeah.

So another thing, I I talked to you about my Jewish friends.

18:17

One of my closest friends is also Muslim.

And you know, one of the things that she goes to a mosque in Texas and they like how the synagogues have been sending, you know, warnings out to their.

I don't know if this congregation is the right word of like, hey, by the way, be aware like da da da, she's getting that as well, right?

18:41

You know, there was just a few days ago there was a Harvard professor's wife walking and harassing a student that just was wearing the, the Palestinian scarf or you know, one of the the I forget the official name of it starts with AK.

19:00

But you know, I think that there is there is that that exists, right.

And we have a long history with Islamophobia in this country.

For me in my life cycle, it became very apparent after 911 and I could actually like see it like in airports and through security lines.

19:21

And I think that we've just kind of unlocked a bit of that, right.

And then, you know, I, I really, I really strongly disagree that pro Palestine is pro Hamas.

You know, I I know that there are some people who are more on the extreme side that are like, oh, Hamas is cool or whatever, you know, I think Hamas is a terrorist organization.

19:46

I also don't believe that if someone is like is pro Palestine and feels, you know strongly that, you know, Palestinians deserve to live in decency, that that that means that they're pro terrorism, you know, and so I think that there's been a lot of backlash against that that's kind of turned into Islamophobia as well.

20:06

And so the rise in Islamophobia is is like notable you can see it with your eyes, and so can you with the the rise of anti-Semitism.

I think, I think you're absolutely right.

And to your point about Hamas versus Palestine, I think the the area of privilege that I can come from is that in that unique relationship, there is a power dynamic where I can say I don't really care what the rest of the world thinks because I know Israel is going to do what it wants and it exists to keep my right to exist in the world.

20:41

And when there's fucked up, shit that happens, I can go, yeah, that's fucked up, but I can get over it.

Whereas when somebody is on the other side of that dynamic and they go, no, this is my life or my cousin's life or my relatives lives, we need to do a better job.

Then it's easy for me to be like, well, what about all the Arab countries who have abandoned you and put you in that position?

21:00

And then it becomes a political conversation when if I were to let go of who I am in that conflict and just go, what if those were two groups of people I had no relation to at all?

I would feel more like, you know, the sweatshirt.

I would be a fan of World Peace and I would just think we need to love each other.

21:16

So this has been a really difficult thing because it pulls me into the stickiness of my identity and really takes me away from my higher spiritual way.

I I view the world.

So I just think that it's become messy for a lot of people and I hope conversations like this can make things a little bit less messy.

21:33

Yeah, I walked the Segway into does the current climate on college campuses, specifically the Ivs around this issue, does it surprise you, especially given your experience having gone gone to some of these institutions?

Yeah, Full disclosure, I'm graduate Cornell graduate MIT and I also am very do a lot of work with Harvard.

21:59

You know, I think the rise in anti-Semitism on campus is very clear.

I think that, you know, the one thing when I used to talk about being a student at MITI used to talk about the fact that I could just challenge my brain and expand my worldview and do so many different things and activities to to kind of test out who I wanted to be in the world, Right.

22:31

And so, you know, there's obviously a lot of in the country that values free speech, there's a lot of protests that are going on.

There's pro Palestinian protests there, pro Israel protests going on.

But I don't think that any student should feel unsafe.

22:52

I think that, you know, the the videos that I've seen of students being attacked, there's a lot of the, a lot of the ones I've seen of like Jewish students being attacked.

I think that's unacceptable.

A house that a lot of the campuses have, the Hillel house, I believe those should be just kind of like coming home.

23:14

You shouldn't have to worry about people banging on the door and banging on the window and harassing you, you know because the reality is that I think what is anti-Semitic is holding a Jewish person responsible for what's going on in Israel and what Israel has done.

23:34

I do believe that is anti-Semitic, right.

Because again let's flip the script.

Three years ago if someone were to blame me for Donald Trump, it just makes no sense.

So if you actually put it in that perspective it it people will be like well it's not the same thing.

23:52

So, you know, I just, I think that we should be able to have fruitful dialogue on campus, kind of much like what we're doing right now that doesn't lead into people feeling unsafe and people feeling harassed and things of that nature.

I think the call for genocide of any group of people is wrong.

24:11

And I do think that's harassment.

That's kind of where like, you know, we can, we can have this conversation, but you're like, OK now you should die.

Like, you know, that's like, OK, the conversation's over.

You know what I'm saying?

And so it it also hurts my heart because I I had such a great time, you know, in in school and we had so many just debates around really complex topics.

24:34

You know, school is a perfect melting, you know, pot for that.

But again, what's happening right now is that we're not hearing each other.

We're not being able to just kind of, you know sit and hold multiple perspectives for each other Just because I do want a two state solution and you know, for Palestinians to live in decency does not mean that I was OK with what happened on October 7th and there's too much.

25:04

It's X or it's Y like pick a side.

And I I just, I I reject that in every single, I mean in the strongest possible terms.

Yeah, no, I look, I totally get it.

And I think that being able to have those conversations is super meaningful.

Like based on my personal experience in Israel, I've always been in favor of A1 state solution.

25:25

And not because I want to silence or downplay the role that Palestinians or Arab Israelis have, but actually because when I was much younger, didn't really have a political context for how I was in the world.

I experienced different parts of Israel that were majority Arab and I was treated very well.

25:44

I saw a coexisting where today you hear of how many Arabs are involved in the IDF that unequivocally support Israel.

There's actually an Arab majority party political party in Israel.

So in my mind, if there was a one state solution where Palestinians had more of a voice in the democratic process, we would probably see a bigger counterbalance to some of the far right politics that's happening in Israel.

26:09

So maybe that makes me kind of a lefty in terms of Israeli politics, but it also isolates me from left wing American politics.

Because saying I believe in A1 state solution sounds like I'm a racist asshole who doesn't think Palestinians have a right to self determination well.

26:24

The issue though, Nate, is that most people have never been to Israel.

I've been to Israel, I've been to the West Bank, and most people don't realize that Israel is only 74% Jewish, right?

They're they're Christians that live there.

26:40

They're, you know, people in the Arab community that live there.

And so I think that when you talk about Israel, there is this assumption, all white or white passing and all Jewish, right.

26:58

And so that's why I think that, you know, I, I, I, I still believe in A2 state solution.

But you know, I've also never heard someone say they believe in A1 state solution and give the rationale that you have.

And having been to Israel, I'm like, OK, you know, I see his logic over there.

27:15

I can also disagree with it, but I see it.

Well, that's the beauty of democracy and that's I think the thing that people who are very liberal pro Israeli, who also understand the different lens of how the people who are ruling Palestine view things.

27:31

Like if we just talk about Hamas as the ruling power in Palestine, they don't stand for any of the values that we stand for here in the West.

So I believe it's important to support women.

I believe that quite frankly, our country does better because we have more educated women and we have women in position of power.

27:48

Like every society that has educated women and let them in, the workplace has flourished.

I have an incredible wife who is proof of that.

In my own household, my life has improved tenfold since getting married.

So I look at what are the values of the people currently in charge there, and is it likely to change if, let's just say that Israel stop the offensive, stop the war?

28:12

I'm just skeptical.

But the good news is, I'm not in charge of having an answer for that.

It just informs why I look at the world the way I do.

And one of the things I've heard, one of the arguments I've heard come from you know a few people in the on the in the Jewish community is well, you know this is we don't I was, I was with a professor actually at Columbia yesterday and he said that he, you know, I, I, he and I were sharing experiences of what we're what we've heard.

28:39

And and we've also heard people say like Oh well we don't care what what happens like what you know who gets hurt because they elected Hamas.

So that's their fault, you know.

But they also haven't had an election in almost two decades.

Right.

And so two decades is a long time to, I don't know change to have different perspectives.

29:01

And so I think that, you know there's this, there's this notion that that that that's that's I think that's a toxic perspective coming from generally people who are pro Israel, right.

But I don't know.

29:16

I think that we, we have to have room for multiple views.

And then also to your point around, you know the Arab, you know women rights and LGBT rights and things like that, that being kind of, you know, the Bible says a lot of crazy stuff too.

29:37

Like you know the Bible says I can I I think you'd put a desk if I work on Sundays like you know all these you know, all these different things like.

And so I think that as a Christian, where my mom, every single year, she would just reread the Bible like it was like some fiction novel like from start to finish.

29:55

And I was like, that's interesting.

But I think that, you know, there's a lot of people like like me that exists, that I, I'm Christian, but I strongly believe in, you know, LGBT, the LGBT community and, you know, their ability to have rights.

30:16

I believe in, you know, a lot of freedoms that you might argue that the Bible does not support.

And the same thing goes with the Arab community.

There may be this overarching like, oh, these are the tenets of it, but there are a lot of people like, you know, my Muslim friends are also pro LGBT, pro women and all the things right.

30:35

And so I think that, you know, we we shouldn't necessarily like put that overarching theme on a whole kind of country or population.

You know, you're absolutely right.

I think where it starts to become the challenge is does that inform the political system?

30:51

So like, if we were to look at Judaism, Judaism is the oldest of the three Abrahamic faiths, and it has some of the most wild shit in our books in terms of laws.

And we've had enough time for the majority of people to outgrow following the book exactly as it's written.

Same thing with Christianity.

31:08

Christianity has been around a lot longer than Islam, and it's had times for that to grow out of being the dominating thing that governs our politics.

Yeah.

The challenge with Islam is that many of the countries where that is the theme that governs their politics, it just not hasn't gotten to that next stage of their own internal revolution that says, all right, we have to let go of certain things and allow other things to flourish.

31:31

So really my biggest criticism of people in the West who apply a Western racial hierarchy to how they view what's going on in Israel, it just shows their complete lack of understanding of Middle Eastern history because they don't realize that this is a region that's predominantly Arab, predominantly Muslim.

31:50

This is a small sliver of that area that follows Western ideals.

And many of the people who flee these countries to go live in America are coming here because they want the American ideals.

So it's I just think it's such a unique thing that us talking about it won't solve any problems, but hopefully give some people some insight as to why there's such complex issues.

32:10

Yeah.

I want to transition into the the Harvard stuff because I think that it's also important to address.

There are three Ivy League presidents who were at a congressional hearing, which I didn't watch because quite frankly, I don't really care why I got interested.

32:26

Was your response because I was seeing drastically different responses and yours seems the most measured.

Why do you think people like Bill Ackman are going in and attacking President Gay at Harvard, specifically over the other presidents?

And why do you think it's kind of this race motivated, underlying trying to snipe at the DEI agenda versus just attacking her on the merits of maybe where she may or may not be failing at the job, but why are they making it personal about her identity?

32:55

I think in short, you know, I don't know why Bill Ackman is racist.

I mean he's clearly very racist and and interestingly, I'll say this and again I went to MIT, so I, you know, Full disclosure.

But Sally, Liz and Claudine, they I think in that they will, they will admit this, they should have answered that question with like very unequivocally morally clear, right.

33:25

And I think that they all wish they could have answered it differently.

I think that what's happened in this is that it's given people who actually probably are already racist just another ticket to be racist, like very openly, right?

33:49

Because Liz was never called ADEI hire.

You know, they're the president of University of Pennsylvania, Sally Kornbluth.

My president was never called ADEI Hire.

Claudine, though, is ADEI hire.

34:08

What's the big difference about Claudine?

She's black.

The other two women are white, right?

If you look at Claudine and Sally's academic history, you know, Claudine went to Phyllis Exeter, Stanford undergrad, Harvard PhD, Stanford professor, Harvard professor, Harvard Dean, and now she's the DEI hireright.

34:28

Sally was had a very similar path up at Duke an an amazing school go Hills by the way had an like you know and but like they had very parallel paths if you kind of look at their academic but they're called the D she's called the DEI higher.

34:43

So I think that there's this history I mean this country has such a history of anti black racism.

It is.

You know, I and and Bill Ackman has been obsessed with it since like the Reagan years, You know what I'm saying?

His thesis at Harvard was actually about how Asian and Jewish students have it harder, you know, And so I think that, you know, I don't know, I haven't, I haven't talked to the man, have no interest in talking to the man, actually.

35:11

And I don't know why he's racist, but he has been, you know, very much part of kind of misplacing and mischaracterizing this whole DEI conversation and now everybody on Twitter and in the country is an expert on DEI.

35:27

So I think you know Claudine, Sally and and Liz, I think that they should have answered the question you know differently.

And they they they wish that they could have and they I don't think any of them actually believes in genocide.

By the way.

Not none of them are actually anti-Semitic.

35:45

They just they they had a bad moment out of five hours of very contentious and combative questioning.

But it's just given a pass to anti black racism and that's it's just that's that's really we have to name it what it is.

Sure.

So I had this is more of like just a how do you qualify question, how do you look at somebody, watch what they're saying and decide that they are racist?

36:09

And the reason I say that is because a lot of times somebody will say how do you like this person or that person, they're a racist and I go, well they're saying enough things where I can go.

Maybe they either in the case of Bill, I could defend him and say he's looking at it through the lens of maybe he's anti affirmative action or he feels like certain policies have made it harder to get in and succeed in a merit based, purely merit based way, which I can give him a little leeway for.

36:35

Or somebody could point to somebody like Elon Musk and say look at the conditions that have been at his Tesla factories.

There's employees being called the N word on the job.

There's there's black people asked to do three to four times as much work as their peers.

So like I can look at those events and go, yeah, something seems off there, But not saying you're right or wrong, how do you feel confident enough to just say, oh that's racist or that person is a racist?

36:59

Like do you do you use a system that you qualify?

Is it something you feel like?

Walk me through that, because I'm genuinely curious.

Yeah, it's 30 something years being a black woman in this country.

But you know, if you look at, you kind of look at the context, right?

For here, context does matter.

37:17

And there are two white women, and there's one black woman.

And Liz McGill, if I'm not mistaken, she has AJD, which you don't necessarily see very commonly.

And the president's office at a lot of top universities, you usually see like a research PhD growing up from there, right?

But the only person that called it that got called the DEI hire was a black woman, right?

37:39

And arguably she is if you put them next to each other, she actually could arguably the be the most qualified, right.

And so when you're like, why, why are you attacking that one person, right.

I think that it it is is you look at kind of the context.

37:58

You look at the person's history.

I don't think that there's, I don't know that there's like a a like X + Y equals racist.

Right There there's because you know, I I I think that it's another another thing too is that they're like, oh, she didn't get fired because she's black.

38:17

Did Sally not get fired because she's white?

Like you know what I'm saying?

Like and so it's like there's these selective applications of these excuses that are race oriented that don't apply to other people.

That's racist.

So it's almost what I'm hearing is it's not necessarily specific things, but the context and then also the most important piece at the end, the places where they choose to bring race into the conversation and that kind of is an indication of where they're coming from.

38:44

Exactly, because Sally and I've been in a lot of I've been texting with MIT administrators.

I was with a big MIT alumni group last night.

Like Sally is not catching those the flat that like it's kind of like calm down a little bit Sally is going to keep her job but it's Bill Ackman's not like oh she's keeping her job because she's she's she's white woman like you know he's he's just only attacking.

39:10

Claudine No.

Look, I get it.

And I think that sometimes I have the tendency of being like, oh, they're just an asshole.

And like maybe somebody is an asshole about a lot of things.

They just happen to be an asshole about race, too.

And I haven't always equated that with, oh, well, then maybe that makes them racist.

So I think that that was certainly helpful for me to at least get that perspective.

39:28

Yeah.

And I think that's, I don't know, like for me is is racism is sometimes triggering because, you know, Nicole Hannah Jones said this on CNN the other night.

She says when you're black and you're not successful in this country, you know, you're lazy, You weren't smart enough, you didn't work hard enough.

39:46

But when you're black and you are successful and you do make it to the top of your film, oh, you just got there because you're black.

And that is a double edged sword of racism.

And I experienced that, you know, as, you know, as a black woman.

40:03

Like there there have been multiple times where I have been on a plane and I have on like a MIT sweatshirt or MIT cap.

And some white person asked me, oh, who do you know who went to MIT?

Bitch, I went to MIT.

Like, I don't understand.

40:19

Like what?

There was a lot of assumptions here.

You know what I'm saying?

And you know it's so funny because I've shared that perspective before and there are white people that have come and say that never happened.

When you live in this body for as long as I have every day, day in and day out and are you can experience what I experienced then you get to talk to me.

40:41

But you know, so I I think that there's it's, it's very clear to me because I live it every day.

And I love that.

I, I I sincerely do.

I think one of the things I admire about you from afar is just understanding that the, the game and the stage is different.

40:59

Like, I think I saw you engaging with somebody around venture capital and if it wasn't you, somebody else.

But they said, like a lot of people in VC say, oh, you don't need a degree.

You know, it's all about having an idea and who you know.

But as a black woman, you won't be taken seriously if you don't have the degree and you haven't gone through the system.

41:14

Like, for me, I'm a college driver and I just kind of made it work.

I and I had some of that privilege in that capacity.

So I respect you for at least going through that system.

I'm kind of curious.

It looks like something's coming up, so I want to give you some space.

No, it's it's interesting because there's a lot of you look at a lot of the YC guys and a lot of the top venture capitalists, even Peter Till and they'll say, oh, you know, the college degree does not matter.

41:41

And, you know, a lot of the guys that they back are Stanford dropouts, Harvard dropouts, Harvard grads, Stanford grads.

And the reality is that you're as a black person.

41:56

Your degrees do matter because if if this is the path that you want to take, if raising venture capital is what the path you want to take because it's what gets you in the room.

You know, I graduated 10 years ago and AVC will be like, oh, OK, MITMIT, OK, come on.

42:14

Yeah, come on, come in.

You know what I'm saying?

And like, come talk to me.

You're you're smart enough, you're qualified enough to talk to me.

If I was a college dropout, that just would not be the dynamic.

And they say, hey, work hard.

It's not, it's not a replacement.

It's and work hard and have that degree because also if you look at a lot of the black founders who are being backed, they also went to Harvard and Stanford and MIT and you know, Brown and Columbia and all these top schools, they did not go to the University of North Texas.

42:47

And there's nothing wrong with the University of North Texas, but there is an elitism problem that is disproportionately applied in Silicon Valley to certain types of people and it's systemic because it keeps certain type of people out, right.

And so again, you ask like, how do you define racism?

43:02

It's like the the in equal, unequal application of certain qualifications, right?

Or certain, you know, applications.

Yeah, no, look, I get it.

I love it and I could probably go on for hours on this thread.

43:20

I won't someone respect your time.

I'm very interested for the audience to get to know you outside of just your thought process.

So you've you've had this incredible college journey, which I also want to shout out Hampton because I'm a big supporter of HBCUSI think it's an important institution within our nation.

43:38

Then as you mentioned Cornell, MIT, then you were at Pfizer, you were at JP Morgan.

I mean like you've had a quintessential American top performers existence, and then you left to go become a founder and CEO of Squad.

Talk to me about what that process was like for you and and what is this mission that you're you're building right now with Squad?

43:57

Yeah.

So Squad is in short a sports tech company and we are an engagement and data platform that we license directly to professional sports teams, starting with you know, top teams in the NBA.

We're moving on to the West and you know moving on to leagues.

44:15

But what we what we do is that we help teams be able to monetize and understand who the fans are beyond the arena.

So 99% of the sports teams, fans, fan base is actually never going to attend a game.

44:32

And so you think about 99% of the people you actually don't know anything about that's that's, you know squads really big value prop to the teams, you know.

But at A at a higher level, you know squad actually started in kind of the horizontal social space.

You know we were an actor that made it super fun and easy for you to talk to your close friends away from social media.

44:52

And you know, we actually just found and unlocked that a lot of people were using our platform to talk about live sports games.

And it was just kind of fortuitous timing because the sports teams like they there was a clear need for our for our product.

And so again, we license directly to teams.

45:09

But at the higher level, I actually think that sports is actually one of the last opportunities we have to restore the connective tissue of society.

As you know, if you are a New York Knicks fan and you're sitting next to a New York Knicks fan, nothing else matters.

45:27

The differences that we have don't matter.

In fact, we actually might listen to each other more.

And I just, I I I've seen sports bridge people from all different backgrounds that would never be in the same room together would never otherwise speak to each other or you know they saw each other in the street.

45:45

They might be inclined to focus on their differences more than their more than their like what where they're similar.

And so I'm I'm really excited for for the impact that we're going to have in the sports, in the sports space squad for sports dot com is the the website squadforsports.com.

46:07

I love, I can't wait till there's more public news made.

I definitely want to keep what you've got going on quiet.

But it's super exciting I guess for you as as a woman, as a black woman, as somebody who's tried to be in the VC space, been in the higher Ed space.

46:23

What do you think that people who've been anti affirmative action get wrong about why that process matters in higher Ed?

Because I believe it, but I I want your perspective on what it is they get wrong.

Yeah, you know I think that the the first of all the conversation around affirmative action is so it it it makes it very clear that most people do not understand it.

46:47

Historically the biggest benefactors or beneficiaries of affirmative action have been white women.

That's that's one.

Secondly, I think that, you know, affirmative action is really, I think it was really needed in this country to actually fight a lot of the systemic racism that exists.

47:09

So if you look at the history of America, we, we are not far removed from segregation, from slavery.

You know, we have a lot more history with those, you know, mechanisms in place than without them.

47:24

And let me just let me be very clear.

I'm.

I'm half Caribbean, I'm half American, my mother's African American.

My father is from the British W Indies.

Shout out to West Indian people and Saint Kitts, but you know my mother, I won't tell you what year she was born in 'cause she might come like she might come like stop me, but she actually went to segregated schools in in North Carolina up until 7th grade.

47:51

Let me repeat that.

My mother, not my grandmother, not my great grandmother.

My mother went to segregated schools in North Carolina until the 7th grade.

And so that's in the 1960s and in the 70s, right?

48:09

Like, what's what's going on?

Like so integration happens.

And my mom hated integration.

I used to.

I I remember telling her one time like mom don't tell people that you're going to sound racist like, but she hated integration.

Why?

Because when she the first two years of her integration, the teachers would actually sit the black kids on a different side of the class and the white kids on another side of the class.

48:35

Black kids were not given hall passes.

My mother explained to me situations where 12 year old girls were having black girls were having their periods in their seats, Bloods forces in blood in their seats, not allowed to go to the bathroom because black kids were not allowed to have hall passes.

48:56

OK, this is my mother and I'm a 30 something year old woman here.

And so when you think about affirmative action and why it was created, it's because oh, another thing too that my mom told me is that her first year integration, the teachers.

49:16

Like if my mom would get like a 90, like 90 mark on a on an exam or on a quiz, it it would be marked as an F And the first year the teachers at the school said all black kids are having to repeat the grade because we just don't believe that the black kids should go to the next grade.

49:35

Wow.

So when we talk about affirmative action and we have a lot of criticism from white people who don't actually or white or white passing people who don't actually understand the systemic shit that happens in this country and how recently some of this very disgraceful stuff was I it it's it's really important.

49:56

Why?

Because we are actually looked at with more critical lenses and that that's that's that's historic, right.

You know I another thing too is that I think another thing that people misunderstand is that affirmative action doesn't say hey let me lower the bar for you.

50:13

It actually just expands the top of the funnel.

Like I can actually factually prove that my test scores and my GPA getting in.

Well Hampton's at HBCU.

So we don't have a lot of the racism issues that, you know, some of these other institutions have, but like for now, MITI was average and top like I was.

50:33

I was averaging above on every single metric to get in.

No, I love and I believe that.

I think a thing like I.

So I actually studied affirmative action closer than any other constitutional issue in high school.

I was in congressional debate for four years, and probably the time I was most politically informed, I got to a certain point where I thought it was all bullshit, and if I could stay out of it, I'm grateful too.

50:55

But that's a privilege, and I understand that.

What I came to realize about affirmative action was that it was just like you said, it's a top of the funnel issue where it's allowing for more opportunity and more consideration.

So you still have to be good enough to get in the room.

51:11

But now it's saying I want to consider other things other than just the specific one area because there's more that needs to happen and when.

A lot of society has been built on laws and structural inequality.

You need to intentionally do things in the other direction in order to get to a place where we at least all have an equal starting point.

51:30

I don't believe we're ever going to have the quality of outcomes.

That's just not how people work.

But I think that we need to do a lot to create equality of opportunity and it doesn't always look equal to people who have had an easy pass the whole time.

And the other point I want to mention, Nate is a fact.

I may be this this statistic is directionally correct, but I I may be misstating a little bit.

51:50

But there there is a stat that showed like over 80% of white people in America only have white friends.

Who are you hiring?

You're hiring the people you're comfortable with.

If you you there's a very much a pattern recognition of what success looks like in this country and it's really tied to the white man.

52:07

And so, you know, I I I could tell you actually, factually if I had started FTX and I was, I came off like kind of Asperger E and I was playing video games in pitch meetings, Sequoia would not have come be that that check at all.

There's always talking a crazy white boy who doesn't wear pants gets away with.

52:25

And like, I get it.

I certainly FTX was a, you know, bad spot on all of us.

But you're you're totally right.

There's absolutely issues with double standards.

And I really thank you for being willing to have this conversation.

I think that there's so much more we can talk about in the future that would love to have you back.

52:42

One thing I asked all of my guests that I want to ask you because I think you have a platform to make it happen.

There's one person you could meet.

Who would it be and why?

If there's one person I could meet that I haven't met, who would it be and why?

53:03

It's funny because I used to say things like Bill Nye the Science Guy, but I actually just met Bill like 2 weeks ago.

I ran into him in New York and I was like Oh my God, who would I meet and why?

And they're they have to be alive.

They don't have to.

53:18

I had a guest say they wanted to meet Albert Einstein and I just gave them some direction for a meditation issue boy.

Right now, where my heart is, I I want to meet MLK.

And I've never said that before.

And the reason why is because I just feel like I want to understand how he had such amazing tools for peace in a society that felt so broken.

53:46

And I feel like our society is so broken and it's hard.

It's hard to not have that way on me.

And I I just, I want to like, I want to talk to him about that.

I think that's so meaningful.

I don't know what your your spiritual practice looks like, but if you meditate I'm sure you could get to a spot of of being able to come in contact with that consciousness.

54:08

And it's funny you say that because some people know I had an infamous mushroom tripping college that drastically changed my life.

And one of the things that happened was I had this metaphysical understanding of space and time where I went, oh, Martin Luther King is not dead, he's just in another time that I can access right now.

54:26

And it really laid the foundation for my desire to, through meditation and channel other people's energy to just try and understand them a bit more and contemplate what it might have been like to be them.

So thank you for leaving the show on a wonderful note.

Anything you want to plug or or chat about before we leave?

54:44

No, I think that if if you guys are interested in sports and a way to experience it with your friends in a fun way, go to squadforsports.com.

And yeah, I just, I I really just want people to be open to having conversations and just entering conversations with an open mind and open heart.

55:06

If we could just do that just 5% more, I just feel like we would just be so much better off.

Well, you certainly modeled that behavior today, so way to channel the change you wish to see.

This has been truly a treat.

Thank you for joining.

And for everyone who's watched this has been another incredible episode of the Much Love podcast.

55:24

Much Love.