0:00

Hello everybody and welcome back to the Much Love Podcast.

I'm super excited.

Today I've got George Kocher, CEO of Brand North Serial Entrepreneur.

Sure, we're going to talk about a lot of really interesting things because the last time we chat it just seemed like we clicked on so many levels.

0:16

Everyone, please welcome George.

Hey, thanks for having me.

I appreciate it.

Yeah, it's it's a treat to have you.

For people who don't know what Brand N is, give us a little overview of the company.

Sure.

Yeah.

Brand N is a digital marketing agency.

We do marketing specifically for behavioral healthcare.

0:35

That's been a shift over the last several years, but we've really just found our our specialty in that.

I have experience in, in that in the past.

So we do digital marketing, we do attribution where we actually track all of their different sales channels and help integrate with their CRM, electronic medical records system, all the bells and whistles that they really need to operate and efficiently manage digital marketing spend.

1:03

You know, that really stood out to me when we first spoke, because seems like there's a new digital agency popping up every day.

I'm a part of a network with several 100 agency founders, and if you just do some lead generation, you'll find 10s of thousands of agencies.

1:19

But I love that yours is very specific in the focus and that it allows you to get really deep into solving problems for a pretty unique industry.

Talk to me a little bit about how you got into that space.

Yeah so it happened over a a long period of time.

1:35

It's not really a a super short story but to to give the main highlights, I started my career off actually in I had a degree in economics, I went and worked on Wall Street.

It's really great experience.

Wanting to get more into the operations side, started working with the high growth startup funded by private equity.

1:57

Got in pretty early there and that happened to be mental health practice group of practices.

So they treated people that had mental health disorders as well as substance abuse disorders.

And I was with that organization when it grew from one location when I first started to about 18 locations across the country.

2:20

It was one of the largest sale exits in that industry at the time.

I think it was the highest.

And so yeah, I had that that experience which was great.

And then that kind of brought me to be recruited by another private equity company where I did similar things and and just really learn the insurance and outs of the industry from a high level where I was in all of the board meetings and doing reporting to investors and working with management.

2:48

So I really learned the industry very well.

When I started Brand N, originally it was more like wanted to start a family, wanted to keep pushing my career forward.

Didn't want to be on a plane four days a week anymore for five days a week.

So I started the agency and I think we just, you know, really kind of transitioned to that over time.

3:09

It might seem like it was the simple solution to go directly into that.

I didn't.

I just, you know, I think like most entrepreneurs I started taking on any client that wanted to work with me.

So I started out doing, you know, we did everything from e-commerce to working with lawyers and this, that and the other thing and then ended up really just kind of finding our groove in in that.

3:34

And it's turned into really not just digital marketing, SCO, AdWords, but more of a a larger partnership where we actually help to make sure that they're using the right systems, they're using the right processes and we can help from everything actually from SEO to compliance and bring in a fractional Chief Financial Officer if needed.

3:58

So we've kind of expanded that suite of of services to really be able to serve that industry.

Which I love to do.

Otherwise.

Yeah, no, I love it.

I think that you you hit on a bunch of really key things that I wanted to kind of footnote and bookmark in my head.

The first one being the first company you were with, you took it from one location to 18 locations.

4:19

You know, obviously that wasn't a solo task, but how are you guys so successful in scaling that effectively?

Yeah, I think that one just like anything when you have major success like that, there's a little bit of luck involved like right place, right time.

4:35

It was definitely in that time period.

I think that industry was growing just very, very quickly.

So I think that was definitely a driver.

A lot of other larger private equity companies things like that they they saw the industry, they saw that it was probably seemed recession proof, had a lot of positive things about it.

4:58

Just like telehealth, like the valuations in telehealth right now or it's higher than in the in the valuations are higher than the total revenue of the market.

So it's an inflated valuation rate that that does happen in some industries and I think so it was in that that time period.

5:14

But the reason that it really had success against everybody else was because we did a really good job at creating efficiencies and economies of scale.

So there was one place that answered the phone calls for 18 different locations there was which I was in charge of and same thing with the the marketing, right, there's one central hub.

5:36

So we didn't need to build a new marketing team for every additional location that we you know that we brought on.

And and that kind of worked with the entire organization where we were able to really put together a good system and process for growing where our cost didn't necessarily incrementally increase at the same rate as we brought on a new facility.

6:00

Sure.

Well, I think that again, each time you say something, there's like layers and there's depth to it.

So what's interesting about that is it's a lot harder to grow and scale one location than it is five locations or 10 locations, but it's making that jump from the first one to many.

6:20

And it sounds like you guys did really well by pulling resources and and having siloed operations and in different areas that service the whole, the whole organization so to speak.

You and I also connected through the agency network.

I was talking about the the AD F agency program.

6:37

How has that program, in introducing those types of operations scaling methodologies, worked as you've transitioned from basically running an internal agency for one large organization to now running your own agency for several organizations?

6:54

Yeah, it's, it's, it's difficult right.

Like it's definitely, that's been my biggest struggle, my biggest unforeseen struggle.

I I think I would say with owning a digital marketing agency, it's you know, you, you know this from the the work that you do, but it's challenging, right.

7:12

Like I was a Chief Marketing Officer role, basically that's what I was.

Yeah, either running the company or acting as the Chief Marketing Officer and doing it for one entity, one organization was able to really be very creative, try a bunch of different things, fail forward and continue to iterate.

7:35

When you're a bootstrapped entrepreneur, you just can't do those things.

And and digital marketing is actually a lot about when you're doing it at scale as as a service provider, it's a lot about organization and having the right systems and processes to be able to bring those efficiencies across all of your clients, right.

7:52

So just because you are great and know your stuff and could do that really well for one organization, it doesn't mean that you necessarily could provide the best results for 300 different organizations.

So I think that it's been very helpful for me in that regard to really just try to continue to replicate the quality output that we expect from ourselves and for our clients across our entire, you know, client franchise.

8:26

Yeah, no, I like those insights.

And one one of the things that I think it's overlooked by systems is actually protecting the employees.

There are so many instances when I ran my agency where I have employees giving too much time to one account, it start to feel burnt out.

8:43

They get frustrated and I'd have to remind them like hey the client paid for X and you're giving them 2X or 3X.

And while I have no problem with under promising and over delivering, you're not getting paid any extra on this.

I want to make sure that you're OK and like these systems are here to make sure you don't go above and beyond so your energy is protected.

9:03

And then there's other systems that protect the way we scale and the way we service more people effectively thinking about how you've assembled the team, what's been successful for you and attracting the right talent and even like, let's say, your partnership with Gene, who introduced us in the first place.

9:20

Yeah, yeah.

So I've really just tried to get smart people around me.

You know that that's really been been my focus.

I'm very good at certain things.

I try to be pretty pragmatic and also objective about what I'm good at and what I'm not good at.

9:39

There's definitely certain things that I'm I'm not good at and I want to have people around me that are smarter and better at those things than than I am.

So Gene's a great example.

He's come on and really kick started or re kick started our our whole operations process and and overseas that which is awesome.

9:58

We have same thing with a a couple of our different managers where they're really the the owner of their domain and I just try not to mess with them And and like my goal is I would just want them to be happy and like let me know what you need so that I can continue to you know create a supportive environment for you so you can do what you do really well.

10:25

That's really what what my focus is just like have the right people on the bus and let them fly.

So I I it's my job to just set up the guardrails and then they go and and do their thing.

I love that.

It's a wonderful approach.

10:40

I think when you have top tier talent, the best thing you can do is empower them with enough guardrails, enough of a system of a framework to keep them focused, but then just give them the space to to play jazz and make beautiful music.

Exactly.

That's that's all that I'm doing.

10:57

I'm just the, I'm the guy that you know sets up those guardrails and and brings on the clients and make sure that everybody is aligned and really that that the team is ready to go run.

That's cool.

Something that you also touched on briefly that I want to go back to was that you had massive success in a very particular industry segment.

11:17

Yet when you started your business, you wanted to be this everything for everybody.

And I can certainly relate because I when people ask me, oh, what advice do you have for building an agency, I'd say, well, I would not do it the way I did it starting in 2014.

I I tried to be everything for everyone.

It's just the marketplace is too competitive today and the way marketing works online is just vastly different.

11:39

Now that you have success specifically focusing on one niche, the behavioral healthcare, what have you found been the benefits of being able to go deeper into that space and what are the ways that you can, You've alluded to it a bit, but what are the things that you can do beyond just the initial marketing to really help somebody in that space for other business?

11:59

Yeah, I think that it it carries a a really long way like.

And of course you can take this with a grain of salt.

It might be biased since it's, you know how I spend my time every day.

But I believe, I, I truly believe that if you run a drug and alcohol treatment center or mental health practice or childhood autism or anything that's within this spectrum of people that you know really need some sort of help that we know more about it than anybody else.

12:31

And we're just going to provide a better service than anybody else because we not only understand how to market those different services and what converts because we have enough data on it.

And when I say enough data like I've spent well over $200 million in advertising in in this industry.

12:50

So I have a very large sample size and know what works and know what converts.

And then we're really spending a lot of time with our development and user experience process where not only are we able to drive traffic, but we're able to continue to iterate on the user experience and make the experience more pleasurable for the person that's searching for it.

13:12

So at the end of the day, most of our clients are serving people that are in some sort of distress, right.

They're, they're not at the highest point in their life, very clear, efficient communication and they need to understand the path to being able to get help in a way that's very easy, right.

13:36

So we're trying to make a very complex process that is very complex, right.

You have like when you're initially entering into one of these clinics or practices or or centers like you have to do so much, you have to verify, you know, see how you can pay for it, right.

13:54

You have to make sure that clinically you're the right fit and they can even treat you appropriately, right.

There's all of these different steps before you actually can get the care that you need.

So we're condensing that entire process and just making it overly simplified.

14:14

And really we're just very focused on solving those problems for our clients where I don't know of any other agencies that are.

I've never heard of any, to be honest, and I've met a lot of people who do play in this space.

But when you say, yeah, I've deployed over $200 million in AD spend in this specific industry, that's just a body of work in a pool of data most people don't have.

14:40

It's also personally meaningful to me.

I'm wearing the hat today for the sober living community that I've spent the most time involved with, Providence Farm.

It's in Northbrook, IL.

It's a very unique type of facility.

14:57

What I like about it is it's it's a community.

There's a bunch of young men living on a farm within a a suburban neighborhood.

There's opportunities for them to get involved with community service, but it's just it's not, it's not quite such a sterile facility, but it's really more of like a communal living in repair through creating relationships and getting the meetings and getting involved.

15:20

I'm curious to know, for the different types of facilities you've worked with different organizations, do you work across different spectrums of of different types of behavioral health?

I know there's different subcategories, but even in let's say the addiction and rehabilitation space, do you work with different types of companies there?

15:38

Yeah, absolutely.

We work with pretty much the entire spectrum.

I try not to be as as all of healthcare because we probably aren't the best fit if you're a dentist, right, to be able to to serve you.

But but yeah, we do everything that's within behavioral healthcare.

15:56

So we have clients that have luxury rehab facilities, they're on 100 acre estate or or in Malibu or something like that.

And we also have teen mental health practices that are you know local place where you can basically if somebody gets in trouble at school or they're having self harm behaviors or or something like that, they need a a immediate resource where they can get the right help.

16:24

So yeah, we work with the entire spectrum we're we're very familiar with the entire thing.

The conversion process is always very similar.

The language, the kind of message that that we're portraying, it's very, it's very detailed obviously to that facility.

16:40

But in concept, we have a really good understanding of of all those things and it's been really rewarding because at the end of the day if we do our job well, it means that those people have easier access to care and they can find a solution.

That's a lot easier or faster and and more efficient for them where they just don't have to get help.

17:01

I mean, this is not an industry where the mental health rates are, you know, negative mental mental health issues are declining.

They're definitely on the rise and it's not something that's going to really change over the next few years, sadly.

Yeah, I think it's, it's disappointing from a business perspective.

17:21

It's always great to be in an industry where there's going to be recurring demand.

But from the human element, this idea of, you know, gosh, it's got to be hard to see so much pain and so much suffering and so many people who really need help.

How does it feel to be part of that solution and at least a piece in getting people to the right help?

17:39

Yeah, it's I would say that's very rewarding.

I mean, for us, we know that if we do our our job well that we're going to be transparent, we're going to be ethical, we're going to be portraying information in a way where nobody's going to feel like they didn't, you know, get what they were looking for.

17:59

And we take a lot of pride in that because it just means that the patient care process is going to be, it's going to be better.

And I think that starts when somebody is looking for help, not just, you know, after somebody's already in in treatment.

18:15

So we want to make that experience as as positive and pleasurable as possible.

Even though it's obviously not a positive experience for for somebody when they're seeking those types of of services, we still want to make it as easy and pleasurable as possible.

18:31

And honestly, a lot of times it's not, sadly.

I mean, we see a lot of websites that we start looking at and it's like they turn into these research papers where people are writing about, you know, XYZ crazy thing just to get clicks.

18:48

And it's not relevant, it's not accurate, it's not useful, right.

And sadly, like, I mean, you know, with the latest Google core algorithm update, we saw a lot of those websites just get crushed by 90%.

And we told him six months ago that was probably going to happen.

19:05

Now they're now they're calling back, you know, but but that's just kind of I think that's how any competitive industry kind of starts to evolve over time.

You have people that really think Oh yeah, if I do 1000 pieces of content that I'm going to go beat everybody.

19:20

So somebody goes and does it the eye without a real intention or thought about user intent behind it, and now the other brands ruined so.

I think that's a piece that's often overlooked when somebody gets into SEO is they want to learn.

19:38

Like what are all the technical cheat codes?

How do I just help people rank better when the question really shouldn't be about how well am I ranking.

The question should be how effective is the content I'm writing attracting the right user and creating the right behavior?

19:54

The right retention, the right click through all the things that will lead to doing the things the right way.

Ranking higher.

But often times people probably just come to you and say, hey, how do you help me rank higher?

Beat the competition.

Yeah, I try to, I, I take a lot of pride in that, that we focus on, you know transit like revenue not rankings, right.

20:14

Because we can any a lot of people can if we needed to, we could make a really beautiful keyword graph of like you're gaining all these keywords every every single month and that's that's awesome.

But at the end of the day, what is it actually converting into?

20:29

How is that actually helpful to your to your business especially where within this industry it is extremely competitive.

People have been spending a lot of money on on SEO in these different industries for a very long time.

So if we're going to put that effort forth, we want to make sure that it actually captures the the goal of the intended page, right.

20:52

And we track all of that stuff and I think go a lot further than than most people because we're looking at it.

It's an offline conversion, it's not e-commerce right, somebody where usually they're picking up the phone.

We track those things.

We track it into ACRM, we track it into yeah, electronic medical records, we sign you know HIPAA compliance documents and information sharing agreements.

21:14

We make sure that everything's encrypted and and we really look at the entire life cycle of the of the patient and in the coming year plan to even start doing things after that where we can be helpful in follow up and tracking patient outcomes after treatment, right.

21:31

So there's all of these different ways where we can continue to expand in in this industry and really make sure that all of the bases are covered.

Sure, I love that.

I'd love to switch gears a little bit.

I know this is your core focus, your primary adventure, but in your description you mentioned serial entrepreneur.

21:50

What are some of the other ventures you've been involved with and and what which one of those would you like to jam on?

And I've I start a lot of businesses, I've started several, you know probably between five and eight different businesses over the last over the last three years.

22:09

So I'm always always trying different, different things.

I'm very involved in in crypto and and blockchain.

I think that's a really interesting kind of development in the last several years where I really believe that some of the proof of identity options that are there are are really interesting.

22:31

So we've done a lot of different things in that I started a development company where we basically build some of those applications that are that are needed for connectivity on the on the blockchain.

So that's one of the ventures that's been really fun and and very successful in the past.

22:47

I've started when I first started the the company actually when I first started Brand NI had a client still have a client who did epoxy flooring, specialty type of flooring and basically like he is a distributor for those products and so he sells to different clients all over the country that are doing that.

23:09

So I picked up several clients in that industry and got to really know it very well.

And I actually started a company with one of my friends who was doing the the epoxy floors and the actual fulfillment of it and I was driving all the leads and all the revenue.

23:25

So that was, that was really fun.

It was very interesting.

I learned that trades are very difficult to do, more difficult than I would have thought.

I mean we crushed it.

We did like $500,000 in revenue in the first few months of being open because we just took over the entire market because that's what I know how to do.

23:48

So we crushed it.

He just like we just couldn't do the work the right way.

So we ended up having to do things two or three times and it kind of took all of our profit margin out of it.

So at the end of the day, we ended up selling the company.

We did sell it for a profit.

It was nice.

It was a fun, fun experience that took about a year in total where we had a historic rise and ended up just realizing, hey, you know, there's probably people that are a little bit better at actually providing this service than than we are, and we ended up selling it to one of them, so.

24:20

That's pretty funny.

I think that especially because a lot of a lot of people who have really good digital specialty, good sales specialty, they know how to make it ring, get the phone ringing, don't often make the best executors of certain types of tasks.

So I I always love when somebody can really go after a market, get great market share in terms of lead Gen. and I think you you're probably wise to to flip that for a profit.

24:46

I have epoxy floors in both my basement and my garage and they're very familiar with what can go wrong or be kind of off in the process.

So definitely difficult work.

Would love to go back and actually go to the proof of identity stuff you're doing in crypto.

I think for the the average person who doesn't really have a real in depth knowledge of blockchain, or maybe doesn't subscribe to newsletters or spend a lot of time researching, they just think of crypto as some sort of like alt investment casino, unregulated.

25:14

Maybe you've been on the right random thing.

You make a ton of money, but most likely you're going to lose money because you don't know what you're doing.

What you've done is actually, it sounds like, create a real utility.

There's a a value in proof of identity or like proof of personhood.

So I'd love for you to talk a little bit more about what that challenges and then what your your company does to solve that challenge.

25:33

Yeah, absolutely.

So I think the whole space is very addressing.

I'll try to explain in a way where kind of the the normal people, everyday people can can understand at least the way that I think about it and the thing to me that's special about blockchain in general as I like to think of it as the most advanced sophisticated accounting Ledger of all time that's also public.

26:00

So in accounting Ledger you can, you know, you you see every transaction it gets put into a certain place.

It's the same thing with blockchain.

And if you own something, you can prove that you own that thing and it's public and you can, you know, have proof of that.

26:16

And within NFT you can actually have proof that that specific thing is original and you own that specific thing.

And I think that that can that that just has a million different use cases where right now it's this thing where you have people can look at it like it's a casino or I'm trying to buy this monkey JPEG and I don't really know you know what the deal is.

26:42

These people are probably also, you know flipping sneakers on eBay or something like that.

And and right now for the most part that might be true, but the technology behind it is just very interesting.

And I'll get into a couple different ways briefly and how that could be used or how I think that will be used in the future.

27:02

And we're developing things to basically support that.

So if you for instance go and day you want to buy a Rolex watch, right.

So you just bought this really expensive thing.

The only you know, proof of that in a lot of ways like there's a serial number on the back of it.

27:23

You have a card that's a physical card that says like this is from Rolex, it's not a fake, it's not a knock off, right.

But if you issued something along with that that you know was in your wallet where you owned it, you could see the entire path from Rolex directly from the distributor to you, right.

27:44

And and you this specific thing.

So, yeah, I think that's, I think that's really interesting.

And I think that it will also be used to consolidate identity in the future.

Like with all this AI and everything that's coming out, you have these, everybody's trying to sell like the Face Faceless YouTube channel, right, where I can just, you know, make ten $10,000 a month creating faceless Youtubes.

28:08

And I could put any information out on the Internet that I want to.

I think that those days are probably going to be behind us at at some point in the next five years because not only the content is important, we're starting to see this with Google.

The content that you're writing is important.

28:25

The author that's writing it is also important.

And how does Google know that you're actually the author of that thing, right, And that you're actually the one that's producing that thing?

And it seems just overly obvious to me that NF TS would be or or blockchain in general would be a way to solve that, where you have this digital identity that's basically tied to your wallet, right, in, in any way.

28:53

And if that's a sign on the only you have access to that, that's a sign on to all of your different channels, then everything can just be aggregated together in a really, really interesting way where it's verifiable proof that you are the one that's producing this content, right.

29:11

And yeah, I just, I think that entire concept is really interesting.

They sort of think about the data that comes from that and all of these different things.

It's These are the types of things that I geek out late at night.

About I love it.

I'm very much into these things.

29:26

I know that Jack Dorsey is working on a project that's in a similar space where this this kind of project where you can have an identity and then you can create content on a social platform that's tied to that identity.

And it's kind of the problem Elon Musk was trying to solve when he made users start paying for verification.

29:47

Because the biggest threat to Twitter is all the bots.

You might go on a post and see a ton of engagement and a ton of argument.

It's just robots trying to get people riled up.

So it's it's certainly a real tangible problem people are experiencing.

When I first learned about blockchain, the industry that I learned about it through the context was real estate and I was learning about the title industry and the title process.

30:13

And this is probably one of the most ripe for disruption industries.

And the biggest thing holding it back is all the money that goes into doing it.

Old school, there's what I would call corruption, but what other people would just call profit incentive alignment to keep that industry very paper and very like records based court involved, but like there's no national standard for title.

30:36

So think about if somebody came up with a federal blockchain that was like, hey, this is how all properties in the US are going to get recorded and how you're able to pass ownership from person to person.

Now just like that Rolex, if you had a blockchain record on the Rolex and you want to resell it, you can now prove hey, this is a a real legitimate Rolex that came directly from the manufacturer.

30:57

Same thing with now real estate.

There's so many ways where NFTS actually have the biggest benefit for real tangible assets.

Once we get beyond like the monkey picture craze, I think people will start to realize oh this has direct hard asset value.

Yeah, it it does.

31:15

I think that that just has not come to fruition yet.

So there's like a there's a perception issue around all of it which I definitely I I understand.

But in terms of technology perspective, it just makes so much sense to do these things.

31:31

I think it will take a while.

Like I think that it's still actually extremely early and we're looking at probably you know the next 5-10 years these things start to change because but the government is just not going to move extremely quickly and start saying, hey, yeah, now like the DMV is all of a sudden operating on the blockchain like it should be, right, It should, It just should be, but that's not going to just some be something that happens overnight.

31:58

I do like, I have found it to be very eye opening though because we've worked with some very large clients.

I'm under NDA, can't let go and and name all of them, but like clients where I would not be able to do digital marketing for them very easily, right, like top 100 companies in the world or in the US just because there's nobody that has these skills really that's trustworthy and reliable and understands the way to to do it.

32:30

So I've actually been sought out as a consultant substantially more than I thought that I would or even tried to, just because there's a shortage of people that really understand how to, how to build and how to work with these different, different technologies.

32:48

Yeah, I love it.

I absolutely love it.

One way that I'm planning on integrating it for myself is I make art and I paint and I do a combination of physical and digital.

And I want to make sure that whenever I sell a painting that I can also issue an NFT with that.

33:04

So somebody has the original, but also part of my model is for some of that money to go to charity.

So I want to make sure in the secondary market we could still continue that pledge towards whichever charity is aligned with that piece that we sell.

So I think that that was the interesting thing that came from the whole open sea and JPEG NFT movement is this idea of royalties for artists and in a little bit more control on the secondary market.

33:28

Yeah, it's super interesting.

Like just to be able to programmatically set that up, right, based on a smart contract, that's fundamentally something that could never happen before in the past.

If you are, I mean just think about the industry, right?

33:44

Like you go and you go and sell something, then that royalty distribution check comes in and and then ultimately the company distributes it to like the 30 different people that work on that specific track, right?

If you if you have that on the blockchain, it would just immediately get split.

34:02

Somebody pays for it, it gets distributed right and I you know to be able to do if the if this then that statements programmatically without having to go through the regular banking system is super.

It's super interesting.

34:20

Yeah, I love it.

I mean, I think that eventually when more people are more adept at smart contracts, it could be really easy to facilitate super basic transactions with each other.

I think a lot of people have been debating about this like CBDC versus private cryptocurrency.

34:39

But personally I feel like the government would be much better to get involved with creating some sort of blockchain rails that facilitate some of those things we've talked about that are more public good and utility.

And that might actually then spark a desire for a CBDC, because then you could use your your payments digitally on those rails.

34:59

One of the other things that comes to mind from a a crypto kind of space isn't thinking about how will the generation of people who are digitally native already used to sending money on Venmo and Zell.

Like how much are they going to be willing to trade the privacy of their transactions for the ease of use of everything being kind of integrated?

35:21

Yeah, yeah, privacy is really the most important thing about about a lot, right.

And I think that's something that is actually a really big debate that's happening in crypto right now.

And yeah, everybody thinks about Bitcoin and all these different things.

35:38

When they think about it, they're like, oh, well, this is funding, you know, shady operations or things that shouldn't be involved in.

But the truth is it's actually substantially more public than other and other venues, right?

Like you can track every single transaction that's ever happened on the blockchain.

35:57

So it is more public and there are some kind of blockchains that have prioritized that level of privacy and and security and it is important and it's also something that is very highly you know involved in I think the regulatory discussions and things like that.

36:15

So that stuff's a little bit over my purview or what I can you know what I what I have influence over at least.

But I think it's going to be something that'll be very impactful in, in the way that regulation is shaped over the next few years.

Yeah.

36:30

And I I definitely agree.

I think there's certain types of transactions I have no problem with public record of.

And then there's other transactions that I think you want a little bit of privacy.

And and really for me, I'm more concerned with like the privacy of what do I buy at the grocery store.

I don't want it to be public knowledge.

36:46

I like this brand and not that brand.

And now this brand is advertising to me because, you know, they're selling my data.

It's more of those little intrusions.

But like, anyone can go online on Zillow or Redfin and figure out what your house is worth, which is probably one of your largest purchases you're going to make.

It's those those like smaller purchases that I don't.

37:04

I don't want the advertiser data to get out.

Yeah, yeah.

It makes perfect sense.

We're we'll we'll see when we get there, right.

We're not, we're not, we're not quite there yet.

We will be someday and then we're going to have to solve for more problems.

So that's all right.

37:20

Sure.

Well, this was really cool.

I feel like we have a lot of interesting, like, connection points that I don't necessarily find with everyone like the behavioral, mental health space, crypto, obviously scaling an agency, there's a lot of interesting things there outside of the business world and investments.

37:38

What do you what are you into when you're you're not working?

Yeah, well, I've got a I've got a son, I've got a a wife, which are both my my joys in life.

My son's 20 months old so that's been an awesome experience just trying to trying to be a good dad.

37:53

So that's really the that's the second full time job.

Beyond that I I wrestled in college so always have been very super active.

I started getting into Brazilian Jiu Jitsu a few months ago so that's kind of my new thing.

38:09

I'm I'm all over that and in general I I like anything that's very active.

I like exploring.

I like doing new things.

I like to kind of like repair physical events with travel.

So a lot of times when we take a trip or something like that, we'll plan out a a hike or a physical activity to do.

38:28

So the next thing that I'm planning is actually a bike ride down to Key West.

It's like 157 miles from from where I am right now.

So probably be a three day ride and bike down there.

So I like to do things like that and then kind of just like be of service whenever I can.

38:46

There's different ways I can help other people or just, you know, really share my knowledge or anything like that.

I I really try to do it, which is the reason I'm probably going to get into podcasting myself in the future.

That's cool.

Like, I can't wait to check it out.

39:02

A lot of overlap and interests.

I grew up practicing martial arts from 5:00 to about 18, and so Jiu Jitsu is one of them.

That was in my rotation and something I plan to get back to.

Actually just joined a new gym two days ago now and it's like a bodybuilder's paradise.

39:21

There's got to be over like 100 machines in there.

The owner was walking me through each machine personally.

Like, yeah, this one comes from Italy.

There were only seven of these ever made and like, you know, this one, I have to drive to Ohio to pick up and refurbish.

It's like that's kind of where my new headspace is going.

39:38

I've I've started the last three days there and it's been wonderful.

Good stuff, man.

Yeah, I started with the jujitsu about probably 9000 and 20 days ago.

I hadn't been on a mat, so personally I don't not to I'll I'll be a little graphic for for a second, but I don't know if you can see that.

39:56

Nice.

Little scar there.

Nice little scar that happened my senior year of college.

I I wrestled for Cornell's very competitive division.

One wrestling shattered my shoulder.

And that was really serious injury.

I had an operation on, actually every single year that I was in college.

40:13

And then the final year I shattered it.

So that was no fun.

I stayed.

I went from basically working out three times a day to like trying to Yeah, I was, I was on my way trying to compete for like the World Trials and you know, different stuff like that.

40:31

So I was very serious about this my entire life.

And then that pretty much ended and I actually like stopped working out for many years, didn't really take it very seriously.

And I don't know if it was like a trauma thing or I just didn't want to deal with it or whatever it was.

40:48

But it it took me a while, Sir, getting back into it, Sir getting very healthy and and all that stuff.

But I hadn't been on a mat in almost 15 years, so I literally just started this, yeah, like 120 days ago.

And it's been the biggest joy.

41:04

Like I'm just absolutely loving it, so trying to take it easy and not get hurt.

But it does feel good to be moving again.

That's it's really incredible.

I had chills run down my spine because I have very similar story in that I was very involved in martial arts and I enjoyed competing as a kid.

41:24

And then when I got to young adulthood, the sensei who ran my school would not allow me to compete until I was 18 because he just wanted to protect my mental health.

He was worried about concussions.

I sparred a lot of guys that were twice my size and he just didn't want me going out and really wanted me to be an adult.

41:43

When I was 17, I had an MCL tear and then after I finished rehab, I got mono.

And then it was just the throes of senior year high school and I was more interested in my girlfriend and partying.

And I never quite got that same spark and that drive back that I used to have.

42:02

And in some ways when I got sober, I thought, well, I got rid of a lot of the anger that used to drive me and motivate me and a lot of the the frustration and the ego.

So now, like my relationship with exercise is totally different where I don't know if I'll ever compete again, at least that's not in me today.

42:20

But I definitely have a desire to get back to the mat at some point because I feel like 30 now.

So jiu jitsu is like one of the few 30 plus martial arts you could do regularly without too much injury if you can kind of, you know, work with your partners properly.

Yeah, it's awesome, man.

42:37

It's so, it's so nice.

Jiu jitsu specifically is really nice because I don't think unless you're going with a jerk or something like that, like you're not getting hurt.

It is pretty light on the body.

It's been a really good introduction for me.

And yeah, it's so important.

Like I don't, I don't have any interest in, there's no ego involved, right?

42:53

Like I'm not trying to beat anybody.

I'm not trying to hurt anybody.

I'm probably not going to ever compete in a competition.

But there's just something about going there, exerting yourself like that, having it be a one-on-one competition that I feel like is really positive for, for mental health.

Yeah.

43:09

No, you're absolutely right.

And there's there's a bit of a I don't know if renaissance is the word or if it's just a a scene happening right now, but for whatever reason, in the digital space, a lot of guys are getting into jiu jitsu.

I don't know if it's doing so much mental work that you need something physically engaging or what it is.

43:27

It's so wild.

Like, I I, I love that, 'cause I'm doing jiu jitsu also and I'm a big, I'm a big fan of it and I want to, yeah, I I want jiu jitsu to get all of its flowers.

I'm also at the same time kind of like resentful about it because I'm like, man, like, I just wish that these people understood wrestling.

43:46

I think that's like, yeah, I look at, I look at wrestling and it's a lot of the best jiu jitsu.

People come from a wrestling background and wrestling is something that right now is in middle school, high school, in college.

And it's a really good path and I think it's just a great thing for for kids.

44:04

I mean, is the whole reason that I was able to kind of follow the path in my career in life that I I've been able to follow is because of that sport and it's been on the chopping block of getting cut from colleges and the Olympics and stuff like that several times.

So wrestling needs like a little bit of popularity.

44:23

So I think it's awesome that people are getting into jiu jitsu and stuff like that.

But I'm always like, man, don't forget about wrestling.

You're absolutely right.

And I growing up, I hated wrestling.

And it was mainly because I already was practicing jiu jitsu and I didn't like the idea of giving up my back.

44:41

I was like, why is it bad?

Like I'd rather be on my back and have you in my guard than to give up my back but not get pinned on the ground.

So it didn't fit with me mentally.

But the best takedown artists are all wrestlers.

I don't know anyone who's a better takedown artist than a wrestler.

44:58

I used to have friends actually, who are much bigger and they wrestle or play football, so they'd always go for my legs and I'd let them have my legs and I would just sneak into guillotine and by the time they were on the ground they're already choking out.

So it's like, you know, now that everyone knows jiu jitsu, though, I doubt I'd be able to get away with it as often.

45:16

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

It's a it's a good time.

But hopefully the people that get into my hope is that the people that get into jiu jitsu will get beat by wrestlers and then they'll go and want to learn wrestling.

So I think that's the that's the cycle that I'm pushing for.

Yeah, Now you're you're right.

45:32

And I think it's a good sport for kids because it it teaches kids a lot of spatial awareness.

It teaches them a lot of emotional control, like not getting frustrated when they're in a in a lower position, but how do they overcome adversity?

And then it's just it's a physically tough and demanding sport.

45:48

Yeah, absolutely.

I'm starting to starting to get into the middle school wrestling classes right now so I can have them in shape tip top for when my son's there.

Oh, there we go.

One question I like to ask everybody, George, who's on the show, is if you could meet anyone in the world, who would it be and why?

46:08

That is super interesting.

Do they have to be alive?

They don't.

I'd probably say Winston Churchill.

I don't know why.

It's just the figure in history that's always interested me.

I think there's there's several of those people from.

46:27

Yeah, Alexander the Great, you know, just any of these kind of people within history that have been able to overcome major adversity.

I yeah, I wouldn't say I'm a major historian or anything like that, but it is one of the next trips that I want to become more educated about.

46:44

Winston Churchill, It's just for some reason he, he interests me a lot.

And they have that war room in England where it's basically where he fought the entire war from that room and they kept it completely preserved.

So I think it's really interesting where we see some of these figures in history that that come along and they're faced with, you know, odds that nobody can really overcome.

47:11

It's essentially impossible.

But they just continue, continue working, continue working through the situation until they eventually find a solution.

And I have a lot of respect for that level of perseverance.

So mainly for that reason Winston Churchill comes to mind.

47:28

But there's yeah, there's a lot of amazing people that have persevered and and overcome a lot of things.

Just the the first thing that comes to mind.

Awesome.

Well, that's cool.

I Are you familiar with the comedian Bert Kreischer?

Yeah, of course.

OK, cool.

Cool.

He he loves Winston Churchill and he does his annual Winston Churchill celebration day.

47:48

He gets the the drink in bed and gets to smoke the cigar and have the breakfast.

So I think that's funny, like that this guy really loves the how did he live his lifestyle, which fits into the Burt ethos.

Whereas you're like no thinking high level.

And it's just funny how people could interest be interested in one person, but for very different reasons.

48:07

Well, that's, that's what's interesting is like, I think that he was probably a very flawed person and a lot of in a lot of different ways, right?

Like there's something like the guy was, you know, they have a type of cigar that's named after him now because he smoked such big cigars.

48:22

He'd drink.

You know, he could drink anybody under the tables, potentially an alcoholic, I don't know.

But, you know, he was like also at the same time, like no matter how many, I mean, they're his own parliament basically voted him out at different times, facing the entire world crumbling around him and being bombed by the Germans and all this different stuff and still figures out a way to to overcome.

48:46

So yeah, I just think that that's pretty special.

Love to Oh I love that George.

What a good note to end on.

This has been a real treat.

I'm very excited to see your podcast when it comes out.

And for anyone who found what George had to talk about interesting, please check out Brand N George Work.

49:05

Can they find you?

Yeah, brand n.com, that's our, that's the, the website you can follow me on, on any of the social platforms.

Pretty active on LinkedIn, starting to become more, more active.

Same thing with Facebook, Twitter, any of any of those.

49:21

Just George Coker.

Awesome.

Well, George, it was a treat.

Until next time, much love everybody.

Appreciate you.