0:00

Hello everybody, and welcome to another exciting episode of the Much Love Podcast.

I've got my friend Andrea here today and I have a feeling we're going to have a really good conversation.

Yay, I'm excited.

Thanks for having me.

Yeah, absolutely.

For those of you who don't know, Andrea is a small town girl living in a Colorado world.

0:18

She's been an entrepreneur since 2001, specializing in strategic storytelling and brand messaging.

She's super busy as a frequent speaker on these topics, as well as around personal leadership development.

Andrew's passionate about helping professionals get brave with their personal brand and the rest of their life, which I think all of us could do some of that.

0:40

Her experience includes content marketing, global living, B movie acting, plenty of weird and wise lifestyle choices.

She has a podcast called Permission to Be Human where she claims that freedom is the new effort.

Everybody, now you know, here's Andrea.

0:57

Thank you so much Nate.

I love it.

Yeah, I love.

I love your glasses.

Thank you.

They're they're actually from a brand called Knock Around.

They're blue light blockers.

So doing a lot of this and having the light on it really helps.

Great.

Well, I'm pumped to have you.

1:14

We've had a really wonderful conversation a few weeks back where I said I think more people in my world need to know you.

We talked about so much.

It seems like, you know, your bio is all over the place.

Our conversation was even crazier and more out there.

I love your energy, so I'm just kind of curious to know what's what's on your mind today.

1:34

Yeah, what's alive for me?

Well, I just want to say first that I'm grateful for these LinkedIn connections.

I mean, you know, we connected fairly randomly and I would say about once every couple months I get on on the have a Zoom with someone and I think, Oh my gosh, so much chemistry like kindred spirit like let's keep talking.

1:51

And I'm so grateful actually to LinkedIn and Zoom for creating these connections with usually someone who doesn't live in my state so.

Yeah, I think that's kind of beautiful, actually.

For those of you who don't know, like how did Andrea and I connect, It had nothing to do with any kind of business outreach.

2:08

Nobody was trying to sell anyone anything.

We didn't even get warmly introduced.

I think we just randomly found each other through content and Andrea engaged with something on my tagline and then I liked what I saw on her profile.

So I booked some time on her calendar and and here we are.

2:25

Yeah, exactly.

So what else is on my mind?

Yeah, I, you know, lately I am working on like reading the room instead of sticking to my script or my agenda, just something that's on my mind.

2:43

I I went to a I was at a music festival, I don't know, about a month ago and I was in the drink line, like, you know, not really paying attention.

And yeah, I got up there and I was like, I don't know what I want.

I don't even know what you offer.

And and the guy looked at me and he said, whoa, stop, breathe.

3:03

It's OK Like, take a minute.

And I was like, oh, yeah, thanks, Like and I could just feel the love in the air.

And then, you know, in 2 minutes, he's like, what do you think you want?

And I was like, I don't know.

And he's like, I'll choose for you, right?

3:20

So he gets me a drink, gives it to me, and I start to pay.

And he's like, go away.

And he's like, this is what the world needs, you know?

Like, read the room.

Like, read the fucking room.

What do people want?

What what?

What's the vibration?

What needs to happen?

3:36

What wants to be born?

And I'm really trying to follow that a little more, to stay in my heart and my body instead of my head and just, yeah, read the room.

That's beautiful.

I was having a conversation with a client actually last week where they're struggling with, they have a pretty nice sales process.

3:56

But sometimes things happen in a meeting where it starts to feel unnatural to go back to the process.

I'm like, no, that's a good thing because what you're actually understanding is where's the conversation going and what does this person need and how can you continue to cater to their needs and trust that by letting go of the process you can still arrive at the destination of being able to serve this person as long as, like you said, you're reading the room and a lot.

4:21

I like what you said.

Also allowing what needs to be born.

I think it's it's a beautiful line.

Yeah, I completely agree Nate.

And and it's really about improv.

Like life is more about improv.

And I've always been such a planner and I'm like, oh, no, no, no, what are we doing?

What are we doing?

And and you know, can you allow things just to unfold.

4:38

But it's it's tricky because we, you know, we we sometimes have a plan and we have we want a certain thing to happen.

But then you're just kind of forcing something, then that's that's not how it doesn't always feel good for anyone involved.

Yeah, yeah, I definitely agree.

I I paint a lot and I'm not in detail.

4:57

Like I could draw a picture.

If you asked me to draw you or paint you, you'd be really upset.

You'd be like this is how you see me.

But I'm very good at like color and spacing and and it's very much jazz and improvisation.

So I I definitely can respect that.

You talk about also not necessarily having to have a plan when we talked about like hey what's this podcast going to be about?

5:18

I went well, when you and I last spoke, you told me about your podcast and I thought the topic was fascinating and you had lived experience I wanted to dive deep into.

So that's that's kind of like the spaciousness or the openness of where I kind of want to to let this conversation go.

5:33

Talk to us a little bit about your podcast, what inspired it, and kind of the the journey you're on with it.

Sure.

So yeah, I started this podcast.

It's called Permission to Be Human and he's with my friend Janelle.

And I think what really sparked the podcast originally was that we both are in a polyamorous relationship.

5:53

I'm in a polyamorous marriage and she's single Poly.

And you know, it is a road, a journey that is not for the faint of heart, certainly.

And there's a lot of reversing of social and cultural conditioning that has to happen.

But it has been like the single biggest growth catalyst for us from a personal perspective.

6:13

And we've learned so much about ourselves, about our relationships, about the world, about how we want to show up in the world.

And you know, we we just, we would leave, we would use these this, this app called Boxer.

It's like a walkie-talkie app if you're familiar with it and you know in the heat, like like core of our experience with Poly across the last five years, we would leave these like 14 minute boxes for each other, right.

6:39

And just like, you know, sometimes I'd be crying or I'd be laughing or I'd just like be like, Oh my God, I have to talk this out.

And then we would listen to our own Voxes and listen to ourselves talk about this.

And it was actually really informative.

So that's kind of what, what spurred all of this.

6:57

So we, you know, once we got together and started chatting, we realized we had so many topics that we wanted to share with the world.

And we do say, you know, that the top the podcast is really about love, marriage, divorce, relationships, polyamory.

And we say that freedom is the new F word because we feel like early on we were taught that fairy tales and forever was, you know, that was the goal, right?

7:25

You would get on the escalator of life and you would get married and have kids.

And that was just exactly how it went.

And that was the script we were supposed to follow back to our last conversation.

And I think at some point we started to question things.

We're like, wow, this is not looking how we thought it was going to look.

7:44

And if if fairy tales and forever weren't correct, then what else should we question?

We thought, you know, what else wasn't quite right.

And I'm so grateful for the, you know, the childhood I had.

It was pretty idyllic, and I had loving parents who were together, and I'm glad to have had that platform to jump from.

8:04

But now I feel like the day I realize I can do things my own way is my day of liberation.

And so that includes, you know, what is marriage supposed to look like?

What is parenthood supposed to look like?

What is love supposed to look like?

8:19

What is success supposed to look like?

And ideally, if you can let go of form and know that those things can look any way you want them to as long as there's kindness and love and consent going on, I feel like that is a really liberating way to live.

8:36

That's such a beautiful explanation of what this process has been.

And I have so many questions, but I think the thing that stood out the most from the first time we spoke was a lot of times people hear polyamorous and they think, oh, I just want to have a lot of sexual partners.

8:52

And and at no point did you reference any of that in what you talked about.

So with this show being the much loved podcast, I go, oh, this is a really interesting way of exploring love.

What does it mean to love yourself?

This idea of F is, you know, freedom is the new effort.

9:09

It seems like what I heard in your experience was the idea of following the path laid out for you by society just wasn't working and you had to find your way to a new path.

And it meant being willing to explore everything that you had thought was kind of concrete.

9:26

And I can relate to that in a lot of ways, just because that's been my life.

I've always had an aversion to authority.

I've always been very much a questioner of you're going to tell me I have to do XYZ, why can't it be KLMNOP?

Like, why did why does that have to be that?

And so when I, when I heard you say, OK, well, this is how I'm exploring what love with my partner looks like.

9:46

I was just like, you know, I've only been married for three years.

Like how do you get to that point in a marriage and and how has that worked for you and your partner?

So much to say.

Yes.

I mean, so I want to go back to what you said about loving yourself.

Because really, what Holly Emery has been a growth catalyst for is realizing that my marriage was probably somewhat codependent.

10:13

And then that led to coming home to myself, right, And developing a strong relationship with myself, with my intuition.

When you say it was codependent, kind of like you don't have to get into too much detail if you don't want, but like what?

What did you say that, oh, like this doesn't seem like it's healthy.

10:30

Well, I think there was a couple of things.

One, I realized that you know, when because it the path of polyamory is hard.

I mean there's all sorts of jealousy and you're trying to like reverse this conditioning that you're supposed to be together forever and we're never going to change.

And so when you when that happens I was like, oh I'm terrified of him leaving me like and that just meant like I like I wasn't comfortable being alone and just being with myself.

10:53

And I realized that was unhealthy in itself.

And I also think that during marriage there is this natural tendency to start glomming on to each other and becoming a we instead of two individuals.

Although I will say in in our vows originally we decided I I just, I don't know where I got this.

11:13

I developed this HA model, so it's HA.

And so I wanted our relationship to resemble an H rather than an A.

So if you think about an A, there's two pillars and they're leaning on each other and if one moves, the other falls.

But they're connected in the middle.

11:28

I mean, it's it's not bad.

That's how most marriages I think work and for good reason.

You know, you're committed to each other.

But I wanted to resemble an H, So I I knew that I wanted to stay on my own path but stay connected.

So I think we always, you know, in theory that was a good idea.

11:45

And we did try to do that.

We both had our individual preferences and, you know, hobbies and friends as well as being connected.

But I realized, you know, a few years ago that still we were just like so connected at the hip, right, in some way that I had, even though I was very expressive and have lots of personality, I had kind of just attached too much to him in an unhealthy way.

12:08

I like, I like that metaphor.

I like the H versus the A.

In my mind I almost saw an extension of that H being like a ladder and can you keep adding new connection points?

But.

So I It's a beautiful visualization.

Right.

12:24

And just keep drawing in new rungs, right?

That's beautiful.

I've never thought of that that because I think we have done that.

And basically what happened is that we coming home to ourselves and doing our own work allowed us to repair my husband and I to repair a damaged dynamic.

12:43

So I feel like when we got married in our 20s, you know, in my 20s, I was not working on myself yet.

I was, you know, I was pretty probably pretty self absorbed.

I think maybe as we all are in our 20s, like I was just like how do you fit into my world, right.

Like, and so as a result, I think, you know, we developed a dynamic then and we're just like you just you get into your pattern and your habit and you stay with that.

13:06

And then I realized, oh, this isn't so great, right?

Like I'm passive aggressive.

He's, you know, he was probably like stuffing stuff down.

I had more of masculine energy just all these things.

So we've it's allowed us to work on this.

And our ultimate conclusion is that because there is no GPS or template for this, we really had to just feel our own way.

13:27

And it was messy and scary.

But ultimately our goal was to live in a conscious relationship, and I cannot remember.

I'm trying to remember the the woman who defines conscious relationships.

But to us, the conscious relationship means that you're committed to the becoming and the growth of each other rather, and the and your love for each other rather than the relationship itself.

13:54

Just take.

That's a beautiful, beautiful way to think about it.

I'm just committed to a conscious way of living, so whenever you add conscious to something, I'm a big fan.

So when you talk about this conscious relationship to me, the thing that gave me hope and trust in being able to get married was that I'd already spent close to a decade doing a lot of deep personal work.

14:20

And I think some people get an ego about that of like, oh, it means I'm good.

Like, I don't have to worry about these problems.

Like, to me that's not what it means.

It means more of no, I'm aware that I've got a lot of flaws.

I'm aware that I have a lot of personality defects, character issues, things that require me to look in the mirror to take inventory and to say these are the things I need to work on.

14:41

And that willingness to hear my wife may be different than I would have had I not been working on myself.

I think has gotten us to a place where our relationship is pretty much been conscious from the beginning.

Where I'm where I'm most grateful, I guess, for hearing your story is knowing that not everybody gets access to personal leadership and personal development work when they're in a stage of getting married.

15:07

A lot of people just kind of get married because they think it's the thing they're supposed to do.

They have a lot of silent scorn for their partner.

They think you know everything would be great if only you would get your shit together.

But at no point did I hear you say I chose polyamory because I needed my husband to work his shit out.

15:24

I heard you say this led me back to myself and helped me learn what I needed to do, how I needed to grow.

What is that experience been like for the two of you in terms of of handling those growth areas and and what are kind of your your takeaways from this process so far?

Wow, so much there, Nate.

15:42

First, I just want to like say congratulations on being conscious and doing your personal work before you got married, which is amazing.

And also I want to make sure it's clear that I am not proselytizing for for polyamory.

Like for me, like whatever you find that leads to your personal growth, that can be a catalyst for yourself.

16:00

Work great.

Like whether that's basketball or living abroad or polyamory, right.

Like like find your truth.

Like this has been my truth and it's worked really well for me.

But it may not be your thing.

So yeah, so excellent job on being in a conscious relationship.

16:19

And then yeah, I would say it was not about wanting him to change, like although and I will say that there was, there was a time when I heard, I heard some some therapist talk about how, you know, maybe I'm, I'm like, oh, I wish my husband would do this.

16:36

Why can't he be like this?

Why can't he change?

And really that's like asking someone who's white to be black.

Like it's like asking someone to change the color of their skin.

Right.

Like sure, I might be always working on something, but I am who I am, right?

And I, I, I don't want to go in saying if you could only change, then this would be better.

16:54

Right.

And so anytime that happens, you want to come back and say, OK, well, what am, what am I doing and how can I contribute better?

So to answer your question, what happened was that we, I feel like at a certain point in our relationship, we didn't see each other anymore.

17:15

You know, we just like like you.

It's kind of like the art on the wall that's just been there forever and you just don't even notice it because you've been walking by it so long in the hallway.

And so we there was a time when we we just didn't have the same activities anymore.

17:31

I feel like we were growing apart a little bit and we've been having some issues, but we still loved each other.

And so we also have a daughter who's 14 now.

So we thought, OK, like, we'd always been a little bit open sexually.

17:48

We'd had a couple of threesomes.

You know, I'd.

I'd say, hey, you know, you can have a hall pass.

Like, I think that would only spice up our sex life.

But you know that didn't happen that much, 'cause when you're raising a child, you're not, like, out and about, maybe new.

People.

Yeah, right.

And I'd go on to like singles night when you got, you were probably a nine year old at the time.

18:06

Back at home, yeah.

Exactly so.

But we were open in that way.

And so I reconnected with an old flame of mine, and we tried that.

And what I realized when I met this, this person I had met a long time ago, was that he ended up being a soul mirror for me.

18:24

So he's so similar to me in a lot of ways that I would watch him.

And two things happened.

I saw all the ways that he was.

And then I was like, oh, wow, I do that.

That is so annoying.

And I was like, I have to stop doing that like.

18:41

And so I saw myself continually in him, which helped me grow and I also saw the beautiful things about him which helped me have compassion and love for myself.

And so he really helped me come back to myself and love myself and have a develop, developed a a big better relationship with myself and that allowed me to come back.

19:04

And you know from my weekends with him, he he lives far.

He lived far away.

I felt rejuvenated.

I felt nourished and I was able to come back to my husband with a new perspective on myself and on our relationship.

And so that you know that's part of how how the Poly began.

19:24

I will say too that the so I would say most of my life I've lived in my feminine or in my masculine, I'm, you know, I have a lot of energy.

I plan, I'm in charge.

I'm like taking over, right?

I just, I noticed this about me.

19:39

My husband is much more laissez faire in general.

He's just like more laid back guy.

And so at some point I wanted to go find my feminine again and that's what my boyfriend allowed me to do.

I would go to his house.

He was in charge.

19:56

He drove.

He lit the candles.

He lit the incense.

He cooked.

He arranged the movies like he just he it was all him and he was dominating and I love that I could just totally relax into my feminine no expectation no ambition and it just felt so good to me to be in that position and so really what I was doing was trying to balance out my masculine and feminine and and that is that is proved just to be an amazing part of my personal development.

20:25

That's really an interesting observation and kind of beautiful.

I guess my follow up to that before I reflect on it for myself was, do you now have the ability to find that same balance with your husband today or is it still where you see things outside of the relationship that allows you to be within the like?

20:46

How does that dynamic play out?

Now, yeah, great question.

So really what's happened is that I've been able to reclaim my feminine in different ways.

I moved with my family to Costa Rica for a year.

Oh cool.

Yeah, just like we we were there 2122.

21:02

And it was a transformational experience in lots of ways.

But one of the ways was that I was able to come back to myself.

I did a lot of meditation.

I had a lot of spaciousness.

My business slowed down a bit because of various reasons.

My daughter was like very wrapped up in her school.

21:19

She had such an amazing experience.

And I just, I was just with her less because her school was farther away.

And she had all these activities.

She was going through puberty and she, like, started closing the door all the time.

And so I had all this time where I feel like, yeah, I was able to reclaim my feminine a bit.

21:36

And that has shifted the dynamic with my boyfriend.

We have separated for right now.

And I think it also has changed some of the dynamic with my husband.

He's done a lot of work on himself, too.

I wouldn't say that I we're going back to monogamy in any way.

21:52

My husband also has a girlfriend who he sees twice a week here in Denver.

But it has yeah, it has shifted things in in my marriage and and so I I still really though, love the idea of that freedom and feeling both held and free at the same time.

22:13

Give credit to Glenn and Doyle.

She's the one that said most of all, I want my children to feel held and free and I thought that was so beautiful and then I was like, no, I want to feel held and free.

Like, I think, I think that applies to me too, yes?

That's a that's a really beautiful and statement because a lot of people try to find this or that.

22:35

What I found is life is an and with that as an entrepreneur, you're an entrepreneur.

To succeed, there has to be this duality of everything I have in this moment is perfect and it's good enough, and I'm worthy of just having the success of enjoying this moment.

22:54

And at the same time, I can't get complacent.

I always have to be willing to look at what can I do better, how can I improve, how can I serve my clients more?

How can I elevate my game?

Because you won't be able to appreciate what you have today if you stop working on the improvement.

So it's it's this and that.

23:10

I think in the same way of being loved can I feel held by my wife in that she holds space for me and she creates this foundation.

We have this joy and this love.

And can I know that she trusts me to be out in the world in a way that she doesn't feel like she needs to restrict me?

23:26

Like I think that's a really beautiful framework to work from.

Yeah.

Thank you for saying that.

I'm just taking that in.

It's it is really beautiful and it is a somewhat of a paradox at times, right.

And it's like, oh, wait, I'm on both sides, right.

Can I, you know, and this is, this is sort of what we sometimes call that transition time when you're in the liminal and you're like you have a foot on both sides of the border, right.

23:51

And sometimes it's hard to stay in that space where you're like, OK, I'm just gonna, what you said in the beginning, just be in the now.

Appreciate what I have.

Let's not worry too much about the future.

You know, can I just stop looking at the future which you know most of our our my life is like, OK, what's your five year plan?

24:10

Right.

That's what I was raised on right?

And now I say like how about a three month plan like I'll just right because things change.

Well, and I like that you, so your relationships, my looks very similar to mine and my wife's where I'm very much kind of the laid back guy.

24:26

I'm a big picture guy.

I'm not a detail guy.

And she's like, let's plan everything out to the detail.

So there's also a lot of, she's got a lot of masculine energy, so I have have a lot of feminine energy.

We attracted in that way.

But at the same time, I found what's made us successful is learning.

24:43

Where, where does that balance?

Where does that give and take happen?

And where many people will often see my wife as this assertive, strong, confident woman who, you know, maybe, maybe they throw in some of those more pejorative adjectives when they feel threatened.

But I see her as this giant, cuddly child who just wants to, you know, fall into my arms because I've created that environment and vice versa.

25:09

You know, there's there's plenty of ways where she's walking around down and earring in the house and it's like, yeah, it doesn't bother me.

I have no interest.

There's no let you.

That's your domain.

That's cool, but she also has that ability to totally connect to that feminine and just allow herself to to be held kind of like you said.

25:26

So I I think that's just kind of critical for anyone is to have that self-awareness and then know what what do they kind of get from their partner in that way.

Yeah.

And I hear in your the way you talk about your wife, a lot of acceptance for who she is and then also curiosity about you know who she might be or how she you know how she might evolve or grow or change or how you know you can impact her journey so.

25:51

And I think something that I was blessed with from therapy, actually being in couples therapy, was this concept of a lot of people talk about narcissism and they think of like you have on one end a narcissist and on the other end this word that I always forget.

26:07

But the reason I forget it is because my therapist instead calls it somebody who's just lacking in self love.

And that usually, you know, you've got a range and an extreme narcissist will find somebody who's extremely lacking in self love.

So that person will do all kinds of things to keep that narcissist around.

26:24

And when I was very young, I was in a relationship that was kind of like this, and today I'm in one that's a little bit more like this.

I still have a lot of work to do on letting go of thinking how great I am and and being very self-centered in my existence.

But I knew if I was going to be in a healthy relationship, I had to find a woman who was a bit more assertive.

26:45

I had to find a woman who had her own things going on.

I had to find a woman who was confident in what she wanted in life and also didn't expect me to be answering her texts all the time and and be that like constant source of like give me attention, give me attention.

My wife was very conscious of I want to be with a guy who runs his own business because I got my own shit going on and I don't need some guy who's bothering me all day.

27:09

And so I think we both had so much of our own shit.

Kind of like you with that ladder or the, you know, the H that can turn into a ladder that now the things we find our connections on, it's not so much like, oh, I need you for this, you need me for that.

But it's such a joy to do these things together.

27:26

That's so awesome too.

And I yeah, I've definitely had a a rocky journey going from that need, right.

Like, Oh no, I need the validation.

Oh I need you to like you know like and I think that comes from not enough self love right?

Like and then as myself own self love has grown then I need that less.

27:45

I think there's sometimes confusion on for someone who is not who's maybe had trouble with their own self love or really struggled with it.

The self love to them can look like like you're being self-centered right.

When really I feel like Oh no, I'm like my word for I think 2021 was claim right.

28:05

So I'm claiming myself and that means I'm setting better boundaries like I'm doing more self-care.

And I don't mean, you know, baths and yoga.

I mean like ritual like being alone.

And it's it's tricky though because it it it actually isn't self-centered.

28:23

It's just like no, no, I'm good.

You can trust my yeses and Nos.

I'm going to take care of myself.

You don't have to second guess me.

And I really strive, even though it's a total lifelong journey of like trying to get to a place where I can take care.

I I'm OK.

I can take care of myself.

Well, and I I think that that is one of those paradoxes of like what is selfish versus you know, actually selfless when my wife and I are not in an open relationship.

28:48

And so one of the the terms of like our starting was like, hey, let's be faithful to each other.

And in the beginning, I didn't cheat on my wife because I didn't want to hurt her.

The whole mindset was like, if I go out and I sleep with another woman or I give another woman attention in a way that's reserved for her, I'm going to hurt her.

29:05

And I don't want to do that.

And overtime, it's actually transcended into, I actually don't want to hurt me because by me cheating on my wife, I'm putting a barrier now between US.

And anything that's a barrier actually keeps me from feeling the full extent of her love.

It keeps me from being in our energy.

29:23

And so it's actually, it's kind of a selfish thing now because like, I don't want to hurt myself, but I think that is how we've become kind of the we is that I see anything I do that harms her actually harms me and it harms us.

So it's it's a weird place to be in because like when I explained that to some of them, I'd be like, oh, so you've become more selfish by being in love.

29:43

And I'm like, I don't think it's more selfish.

I actually just see my wife as a greater extension of me and I see us in that way.

Wow.

Yeah, I love it.

I think that's really true.

And that is like constantly coming back to ourselves instead of thinking.

So maybe it comes a little bit back to people pleasing too, because I was brought up to people pleased.

30:03

And you know, and it served me well for for a lot of in a lot of ways.

But in general, what I'm trying to do now is like when I enter a room full of people no connect with myself 1st and then connect with other people, right.

Then I can connect with them from a grounded place.

30:18

And I hear that's what you're doing with your wife, right?

You're like, no, you're taking care of yourself and then that allows you to be fully present for her.

Yeah, well, I think that's why a lot of relationships fail is because of the foundation they're built on.

And I know it's a very, you know, kind of cocky thing to say.

30:34

So I'm only married three years.

We've only really been together in a strong, committed way for about four.

Yeah.

But what I noticed from all my relationships that didn't work out was that I would slowly abandoned myself to make more and more time for this person.

30:49

And we were letting go of pieces of ourselves to come together and create this new thing.

And then eventually one of us or both of us would be lacking because we weren't nourishing ourselves properly and then the relationship would crumble.

Whereas this relationship was more like, hey, I'm going to live my life and I'm going to slowly introduce it to you and you're going to live your life and introduce it to me.

31:12

And so we would literally see each other like once a month when we were in like the early, early stages.

And then it wasn't really until we were at this place of like, all right, no, I know there's commitment here that it was a couple times a week staying over at each other's houses, you know, and then it and then it moved fast.

31:29

It was like slowly and then quickly.

On our six month anniversary, I asked her to marry me.

We bought a home within two months.

We ended up getting married six months after we got engaged.

So I say all that to say, I feel like if people can create together and and make sure that they're still staying true to themselves, which seems to be the core of the work that you've done on your relationship.

31:54

I mean you you have this friend that you have this podcast with.

How do you guys explore this as friends and what are what are some of the things that kind of come up in your conversations?

Together.

Well, I think you know what I was going to ask you.

I'll ask you a quick question.

So do you and your wife cultivate alone time?

32:13

Like, do you get alone time?

And does she get alone time in your relationship?

Yeah, I don't think it's it's not a lot, but it's definitely there.

Like for example, I'm going to Los Angeles for a business trip that I was intentional.

Like, no, let's you're not going to come on this trip.

32:30

And she was going to have a trip to Washington.

And I'm like, I'm not going to go on that trip.

Let's give each other a little space.

And that was mainly because we go on pretty much all of our trips together.

I think it's helpful for us to sometimes have a little time apart to kind of have some of that that fondness reignited, like the reunion energy.

32:49

But then also in, like, at home sometimes I'm like, hey babe, I'm going to take a bath tonight.

Are you interested?

And she might be like, no.

And then I don't just go, oh, I'm going to cancel my bath plans because she doesn't want to share a bath.

I'm like, oh, I'm still going to have a bath.

I think we've also cultivated some of that aloneness in our home of I have the whole basement to myself.

33:07

It's my gym, it's my office, which has two rooms upstairs that are kind of her space.

So and then there's there's other activities but I think that's it's kind of critical for us to have that.

Yeah, I completely agree.

And so this is one of the things we talk about a lot is that early on, I've always been an extrovert and I just, you know, naturally kind of build relationships almost without thinking about it for a long time.

33:32

I think without enough attention, intention.

But over time and say the last five or ten years, I really like my alone time now.

And really polyamory was what kicked that off, right?

Because I was.

I started having nights alone without my husband, right?

33:47

I would he would go to his girlfriend's for a couple nights a week and at first this was incredibly hard.

I have to say in the beginning, the witching hour like I would be I'd be good and then I would just be like.

But then over time I really began to value that alone time and I just feel like that is one of the critical pieces I've gotten out of this is that yeah, I need my alone time now.

34:11

I want to build a better relationship with myself and working that into the relationship I think is huge, just like you and your your wife are doing.

Another thing that comes up for my friend Janelle and I is that you know the model, I think with which I look at life has shifted and Janelle and I have what we call blurred boundaries.

34:34

So I think of her in some ways like a second spouse, like, you know, she is like my one of my other partners in life, you know, And we have also done some fooling around, you know, in in, in a playful way.

We're not really a romantic relationship, but yes, we we have like slap naked together and like spoons and and and it feels good to have that blurred boundary.

34:59

It doesn't like it works for us.

I'm not saying it works for everyone, but most people would think, Oh my gosh, you can't do that, right?

But like, why not?

Like, you're right, there's there's something that that kind of openness with friends can bring.

There's a couple things that come to mind.

35:14

I remember in summer camp, there was just a moment that hit when all of a sudden all the guys just became comfortable with being naked around each other.

And we're like, it was like we all of a sudden just stopped closing the curtains when we'd shower, you know, we were less uncomfortable with changing around each other.

35:33

And just it was this acceptance and this getting over the vulnerability of like, I'm afraid you might see me and judge me to more of like, no, I'm excited to share who I am.

I've also very much been like the publicly naked guy and the friends, especially when I partied so that that sometimes went a little too far.

35:51

But then also I'm thinking about my closest relationships outside of my marriage.

I have a best friend who's been my friend since we were eight and best friends since 7th grade and we used to call each other like Jay and Silent Bob are our heterosexual life mates.

36:09

Just the people, you know, my best friend I'm doing life with.

And then I have a a really, really close relationship with a best friend who's a woman.

And in a lot of ways, I get some masculine energy from him.

I get some feminine energy from her.

36:24

And they're these perspectives that I can get on life and share really deep connections with outside of my marriage.

But just neither one of them needs to be like a physically intimate relationship.

And it's been, it's been kind of nice to have that complement to my my core, my core trusted relationship.

36:41

Exactly so.

So I love that and that the word you use is vulnerability and it's so nice to have someone else besides my partner that I can be incredibly vulnerable with, right?

And I think that it creates this model where before I was brought up with the idea, which which is fine if it works for you, but I eventually realized it didn't work for me, was that, you know, it's husband and wife together and then it's like the rest of the world, right.

37:09

So it's like them against everyone else or with, you know, with everyone else kind of below.

And that's how I used to think of myself.

And now I feel like I'm like, oh, I'm standing in my own power.

And my husband is one of the sea of people that's in my support and partnership community.

37:25

There's him and I have several, you know, a few really good friends and I have my daughter and I have my parents and but that's a significantly different model and I think it's OK to go outside the relationship in the same way that Polly offers to get other things.

37:40

So you know, most of my friends are not, I are not physically intimate, but I do get things from them and I get very nourished from them in ways I don't get nourished from my my husband and I I just think that's OK.

In fact, some people do Polly, and they're not even having sex, right?

37:59

They're like, they go and go dance, go dancing with someone else because their partner doesn't dance and they get that part of themselves fulfilled in a different way.

And so it it to your point early on about, you know how I didn't mention sex like it?

You know, it, it might be about sex for some people, but it doesn't have to be.

38:18

And it definitely was not the primary purpose for me.

Sure.

No, I think that it's really, really beautiful.

I'm looking at some of my notes about your your bio and and thinking kind of what comes to mind.

One of the things that stood out was be movie acting.

I was like, OK, I got to know about that because I've, I've been an extra.

38:37

I love movies and I one day want to be in them as like a, you know, like a character actor.

So I'm just kind of curious, what's your journey been like with that?

Well, what?

So what?

What what what?

What movie?

Were you an extra in Tell?

So it's called Yanis.

It actually just came out and I'm actually about to introduce the person who produced it to a a local theater where I'm at, hopefully getting a screening of it.

39:02

But it's it's about this this guy who is a teacher at school and every year they do this, this play, this theater production, and it gets cancelled due to budgetary reasons.

So he decides that in order to raise the money to put on the play, he's going to infiltrate an Orthodox card game called Yaniv.

39:20

And so he dresses up as his Orthodox Jew and a bunch of high jinks ensues.

So I got to be an extra and play an Orthodox Jew.

Cool.

OK, awesome.

Sounds like very quirky and interesting for sure.

Super.

I mean, it was written by a bunch of quirky, interesting guys and the crew and the cast.

39:36

It was so much fun and many of those were my friends from summer camp who I was so open and vulnerable with.

It felt like that when I went and did that, it was like going away to camp.

Wow.

I love that you're still friends with these people that you're friends with so long ago, too.

That's amazing.

Yeah, one of the guys.

I'm actually going when I go to LA tomorrow, I'm staying with one of my friends from summer camp, just going to crash at his place.

39:58

I used to stay at his place in Ohio when he lived there and it's just it's fun.

We we built really good, solid relationships.

Yeah, it's beautiful.

So my husband and I were in the Peace Corps as adults.

Now this is getting to the B movie acting.

40:14

So we when we turned, I turned the day I turned 30, we left for the Peace Corps.

We like quit our corporate jobs, shut down our lives, sold our cars and left the country.

And we lived in Bulgaria for 27 months.

So super crazy like.

And then we, you know, couch surfed and hitchhiked across the Middle East and North Africa for like 9 months.

40:33

Really.

You know, odd detour in the middle of our lives, but completely shifted our world view and changed our life.

It was amazing.

That's.

Powerful.

And I actually want to pause there for a second because you then you said some crazy shit there in a great way.

What what was going on where you guys decided we need this and what gave yourself permission to do it?

40:53

Because I think a lot of people want to quit what they're doing, burn it all down, start fresh, but they're afraid.

And so I'm just like, but you did it.

So, like, what made you do it?

So let's see.

Basically we were like, OK, we did what we're supposed to do.

41:11

We got our jobs.

I filed, I had, I was on the resume track.

I had the internship.

I graduated college at a time whenthe.com was going on.

So it was like beautiful world, like I got a job right away.

I was probably overpaid.

You know, we were having like we were painting the room and having, you know, meetings at Starbucks.

41:27

It was beautiful time.

And my husband had a well paying corporate job and eventually then I started my own business after September 11th happened and everything went to shit.

And so we're on this track and we're just like, huh, Like we're feeling a little unfulfilled.

41:45

Like we were told this was the right, you know, right track to be on.

And so we were feeling a little empty.

And I think I, I felt like the things that I that were promised would fulfill me, like book club meetings and marathon training runs and Banana Republic purchases, we just weren't working anymore.

42:05

And so we knew we wanted to do something very different, but we didn't know what that looked like.

We wanted to volunteer.

We wanted to move abroad.

And my husband was at a corporate job that he hated and desperately wanted to quit.

And so, yeah, so we.

So we we looked everything up and decided that the Peace Corps was the right option because they pay for everything.

42:25

You know, they they send you abroad, they give you, you know, they give you language lessons and they take care of everything.

And so, so we left.

And I think your point about permission, which is part of why our podcast is called Permission to Be Human is, is just that, yeah, sometimes you really need that permission to do those things.

42:44

And I I feel like I, I grew up in really being supported with my ambitious ideas and, you know, big thinking.

And the joke is that I tend to have a lot of moxie.

Like I'll try new things.

I just and very anxious along the way so so I'm fortunate to have a husband that's supported me as I've you know as I've been anxious and when we've done all these all this crazy shit.

43:10

But yeah, so we just, we did it, you know, We just shut down our lives and left.

That's beautiful.

I love it.

I'm.

I'm a big fan of being willing to constantly reinvent yourself and I like to think of life as like building a pyramid.

43:27

And if you have a lot of wide interests, you can do a lot and it might be slow to build up.

But whenever I find myself getting too close to that pointy top where I'm like I'm really single focused, here I go Maybe it's time to step off the top and build that base a little bit more.

43:42

Because there's probably some areas in my life I'm neglecting and I can't.

Like I'm too young to be just so single point focused, like there's got to be more going on.

Well, I love that model.

What a great idea, Nate.

Yeah, because I think you do.

Like, I started out so widely focused and have slowly narrowed over time and used to beat myself up a little bit.

44:01

And they're like, no, like, pick, you know, how about having 3 balls in the air instead of 17, right.

So yeah, that's a great.

That's a great thought.

I'm going to ponder that more.

It's.

And that really did change our lives.

44:17

And it, you know, after we went to the Peace Corps and then, you know, then we did all this couch surfing and hitchhiking for nine months, which completely changed our lives.

And we came back and we're like, why do we have all this stuff, right?

Like, why do I have 5 hoodies and like, you know, 6 platters for the kitchen and just like, just all this crap.

44:36

And so it really did change the course of our lives.

But while we were there, we realized that movies were filmed in Bulgaria because it was really cheap to film and they could get cheap actors because they didn't have to pay, you know, I think it's called the what, The Screen Actors Guild.

44:53

So we as as volunteers, we were, we were paid, you know, under the table like 250 bucks a day.

We had our own trailers and stuff.

I was in Lake Placid 2A, really bad CGI movie you might find on the sci-fi Channel in the middle of the night and something called the Echelon Experience Echelon Conspiracy.

45:14

And then also I was in Mega Snake, so I mean really shitty movies for sure.

Like, but still like you might catch me and I look a lot younger, so.

That's that's awesome.

I think it's to me, it's not about like I don't need to be the star, you know, I don't.

45:32

I don't have any, like consider like I know who I am.

Like I'm not Leonardo DiCaprio.

I'm not Brad Pitt.

Like, I don't AI don't look like that, but BI also don't have that thing in me that goes I need to tell stories and I need to be an actor and that's the way to do it.

The thing that I have in me is like, I just love life and I'm I'm so happy to do so many things just because I have a why not me attitude where I go like, yeah, I don't.

45:56

I don't need to be like I loved Entourage.

I don't need to be Vinny Chase.

Like sometimes I just want to be drama.

Who gets like a really interesting line, but that line advances the plot like that's cool for.

Me right.

And we all like love drama.

He was hilarious, right?

Yeah, he's he's the best.

My sister actually does a really good Johnny Drama.

46:13

Like, we all have different We're all Vince in different circles, right?

We're all E in different circles in a certain circle.

My sister is Drama and she's always calling me baby bro, even though I'm two years older than her.

It's just so funny.

She's just like baby bro.

I love it.

46:29

What What's some of your other TV shows I just like?

Can we geek out on pop culture for a second?

So I've watched Entourage probably like 7 times, so I have been real helpful.

For me, The Wire is probably my favorite show of all time.

I just think the way it tells the story and the way it's written is probably better than any television show ever.

46:49

But the story it's trying to tell in the tragic nature of it, that's also so much so enjoyable.

Like, I just think it's perfect.

So I have never seen The Wire.

It feels like it's on every top time list of every TV show ever made.

And I've never like the premise doesn't interest me that much, but everyone says, Oh no, you have to watch it.

47:07

So yeah, I've not watched that.

If you can get over the like, oh, it's about cops and it's about drugs.

And like, it's get beyond that and think about it.

It's actually about the decline of American cities and it's about the role of bureaucracy and fitting into the system versus actually being an effective individual trying to do the right thing.

47:29

So I think for you in what your life is about with like tearing down all of these structures and being willing to analyze them, like you would like it from that perspective.

Because it's all about chain of command and people who get promoted along the way, really being incompetent but knowing how to play the game they're in instead of the people who are being critically thinking and aware.

47:49

It's, I think it's beautiful in that way.

Wow, that's really interesting.

Yeah, I've never heard analysis of it like that.

But I do love that because it it can be, although I I feel like it's it's naturally who I am, but it can be scary and lonely being like, OK, I'm going to do it my way.

48:08

Nobody else is around.

It's just me, like doing it my way, right?

Especially when you're doing something as taboo, as polyamory or as weird as joining the Peace Corps at 30.

You know, we also, like, had my daughter at a birthing center back when my in laws and my mom were like, what are you, You know, Like, like not in the hospital.

48:29

Oh my God.

You know, we sent her to a Waldorf school, which doesn't teach reading till third grade, You know, So all these kind of.

Mission behind that.

I'm very curious to learn why that because I've never heard that ever.

Yeah.

Are Do you guys want kids?

Is that something you're?

48:45

I actually, secretly I want her.

Not so secretly.

I tell her all the time.

I want her to have twins, a boy and a girl.

I know she's only going to sign up for being pregnant once.

She only wants to have one.

We'll see what happens.

Twins would be a score.

I always would thought like that'd be so perfect, although the first three years will be a little rough.

49:01

I've heard pretty bad stories about that.

But yes, So what was I saying?

Not reading until food grade.

Yes.

So if you look into Waldorf, it's just it's a whole movement.

My my parents used to call it like one of our cults.

49:18

So it is a very different kind of thing but and a lot of people will call a hippie dippie option but in general they it was started in Germany in the 1940s by Rudolf Steiner and the philosophy is that it's very anti technology.

49:35

My daughter would never have been on a computer until probably now.

She's 14.

If it hadn't been for Covad, she they learn to read later, so that and then they quickly, like they jump from hop and pop and pop to Harry Potter very quickly because they're generating a love for reading instead of making them memorized.

49:57

They also have teachers in a loop system, so they have the same teacher for at least over three to four years.

And so that way that teacher gets to know them, you know, gets under the surface, learns to work with them.

It's very liberal arts focus.

They all have a play every year.

50:12

They write their own textbooks, they learn to cook, you know, they make their own food.

It's really about like, how are things, how do things work and how are things made?

And there's no standardized testing.

It's definitely a real, a real experience.

50:29

My daughter's been part of it since she was 4.

The biggest reason I wanted her to go there, I realized over time was that she I knew that she would emerge with this beautiful and very clear sense of of self.

And that has definitely happened for her.

50:48

I'm grateful to hear that because one of the things that's been a question in the back of my mind that I forgot of because I have ADHD but came back when it was necessary, is what is this experience been like for your daughter of just you and your husband's experience?

Does she notice that?

51:03

How does she feel that?

And then couple in with this what I call pretty unique education experience.

How?

How is she adjusting to being raised in a very much we're gonna question society and build things our way kind of environment.

Yeah, so I believe my daughter was, she's an old soul from the very beginning.

51:27

She, I believe someone in the womb like told her don't let them objectify you because from the beginning she's like, you know, not people pleasing.

Don't take my picture like really strong, had a very strong sense of of who she was and and knew what she wanted from the beginning.

51:47

And I think this Waldorf education was a really good fit for her.

She has really become her own person from the beginning.

She's been a trendsetter, not a trend follower.

She's all about self-expression.

You know, she's all about social justice and feminism and LGBTQ.

52:04

And so I think we've taught her to have an open mind and to question things.

And so it's been a good education for her.

And she also attended a Waldorf school in Costa Rica, which was an amazing experience in itself.

It was on the beach.

And the great thing about Waldorf is that they have schools all over the the world and they all have the same basic core principles.

52:26

So she basically got the same 6th grade there that she would have gotten here.

As far as the polyamory goes, she we've been doing this for about 7 years and she knew from early on that we had these separate relationships.

52:44

Of course we didn't go into any details about, you know, what we were doing, but I think it's really important to share information slowly as she's gotten older.

That's what we've done.

It's really important not to be hush hush about it.

53:02

Like like, oh, is she going to be OK?

We have to keep this from her.

No.

Like we're saying, look, this is what's working for us.

It may not be your choice, but we are exercising our choice.

And there is a lot of love in this house.

There's a lot of love between my husband and I, and that's the most important thing.

53:21

Yeah, I like that.

I think for a lot of reasons, but to take it into my own experience, when my parents got divorced, I was at this place of I've been working really hard to grow a business.

I am struggling with grasping why they've gotten to this place because I just see like there's so much more work they could do.

53:45

Like why?

Why are they just ending it?

Like, And I was really hurt by that.

And I also felt a lot of responsibility because my sister and I lived in the house with my parents as young adults and I kind of played that negotiator, peacemaker role.

And as soon as I left, their marriage crumbled and I felt a lot of guilt and I felt a ton of weight on myself for that.

54:06

And I was in this place where I easily could have been like, you know what?

Fuck love.

I'm just going to go all in and building my business and make a lot of money and sleep with whoever you want to like.

I'm just going to make it all about me.

But I went to a yoga ashram for 11 days when I was at the kind of the end of this meltdown and needed to recenter and come back to myself.

54:27

And I took a little time alone.

And then I was like, you know what?

I actually want to commit to this, this young lady that I've been seeing kind of casually.

I'd like to like to make a real commitment to her.

And I'm actually entirely willing and open to be vulnerable to love.

So I think that to contextualize that in the real idea of like your daughter, I think you and your husband sharing what things are like in a real way and kind of being open and age appropriate, I think helps her create her own internal sense of what she needs and that it gives her actually permission to do whatever the hell she wants.

55:03

It doesn't doesn't force her to be you.

Like I think that's the thing.

A lot of people especially were very conservative when it comes to relationships and when it comes to sexuality and identity.

They're afraid that children seeing that is going to make them want to go do that.

55:19

Whereas to me I'm like I think it just gives them permission to explore who they are.

I'm also a big fan of keeping things age appropriate.

Like I don't think you should be going into school and teaching kids about sex toys when they're in middle school.

Like you're just that's super inappropriate.

Doesn't matter if it's straight or gay or whatever.

55:36

So I think this idea of learning, how do you be authentic but do it in a way that's respectful and appropriate for a child's development?

It just sounds like you guys have been really intentional in the way you've done this.

Thank you.

Yeah.

And a couple things I want to say.

It's really beautiful how you really you chose the harder path by not saying like, fuck love.

56:00

I'm not doing that anymore.

My parents got divorced loves really turning to cynicism.

You could have done that so easily but you chose to work on yourself and you know, embrace that, that messiness and say OK, how can I make this work?

And yeah, that this, this journey with her I believe has given her the permission to self express and be who she really wants to be.

56:26

And you know doing it with respect as well, like and doing it with some things are private and some things are public.

Sure.

But in general, I want to look at other people and not judge them and just say, OK, that's what works for them, right?

So that lack of judgement, I believe, really starts with not judging yourself when you stop judging yourself and you stop judging others.

56:50

But that takes a long time, right?

And I want her to know that we've worked on ourselves, we've worked on our marriage and life is impermanent.

Yes, in five years our marriage could change or we could separate things do change and if that's the best route for each of us on our own journey, then then so be it, right?

57:11

But I I really, I hope that we have installed in her that it's OK to do things your way and that ultimately coming back to yourself and loving yourself is is your is the first relationship that you should have.

I think that's a a really great foundation, but also because it helps people relate in a more complex way.

57:31

So a lot of life is not simple, it's not black and white.

We're seeing a lot of that with what's going on in Israel right now and in Gaza.

And I have a very strong pro Israel beliefs because of my ancestry, because of lived experience there.

57:47

And so everything that I see I know is clouded from that lens.

And I have a lot of friends who have a very pro Palestinian mindset.

And there's a lot of times assumption from people who know nothing like do I have to be on one side or the other?

And I think when somebody has a strong sense of self and their self, self-awareness, they can see like where where is my bias coming into play versus where, where is my education coming into play.

58:16

And in an issue like this, a lot of times people get vocal and all of a sudden you see, OK, well I'm listening to you, you're actually really uneducated, but you're applying a bunch of value ideas to something.

OK, this person's actually really educated, but they're also educated in this school or this person.

58:34

It's so like now because I've spent a lot of time looking at myself and going how do I see this world Now?

I can have a little bit more grace for when I see something that maybe I don't agree with, whether it's something that's like even further pro Israel than I am, that's like maybe even anti Palestinian, which is not.

58:53

Or I see somebody who's like so pro Palestine that they're anti Israel.

And I can see all the shades in between and I don't love people into groups.

Now I go, OK, what's your POV and how did you get there and why?

And are you somebody who wants to have a conversation or are you just somebody who I really don't need in my life anymore.

59:12

And I think you've actually equipped your daughter to do the same thing.

For whatever issues will will come to matter for her and wherever she finds herself in the flow of the world.

Yeah.

Thank you.

And I hear you being curious, right, Just like remaining in curiosity about others instead of what we tend to do and what our habit is, which I think it's just human nature is we want to just bucket people.

59:35

It's like, OK, how can I put them into neat container store bins in my basement, right.

Like, like it just feels good to have things organized, but life is just not, doesn't work like that.

And what I also hear is that you're doing is being curious about the other side, right?

59:51

Because something someone said to me probably 15 years ago now was, yeah, Democrats are, you know, they're really open minded until someone disagrees with them.

And I'm like, that is so true.

Oh my God, am I doing that?

1:00:08

And I don't want to get too far into politics or anything.

It's just in general, whenever I'm I happen to be around someone who has a drastically different opinion than me, even in this very divided country.

It's hard because I'm like, how did you potentially, you know, vote for XYZ?

1:00:28

But I want to know why.

Like, what led them to do that, right?

Like, what was their upbringing?

Why did they choose that person?

What's you know and most often you know, these people are not sadistic and and horrible people.

They're they're, they love their children and they they they're trying to be a good person, but they're coming from some angle that is different than mine.

1:00:47

And so the more I can learn about that, the more compassion I can have for them.

And I I usually end up doing this when I'm in an Uber.

I used to take an Uber a lot to the airport and I would always like dig in a little bit and ask people like, you know, just just to see if I could get somebody with a different opinion than mine.

1:01:06

Then I'd have this half an hour conversation with them.

Well, I think that The funny thing you talked about was like the open minded until you disagree with them, There's such a thing as becoming so liberal and so progressive that you actually revert to some things that are actually so conservative.

1:01:22

And so like a digressive or regressive because a lot of people see it as like a a continuum on like one line when actually it almost wraps around like a doughnut.

Like I talked about the difference between being special needs and being gifted.

1:01:38

Like, in a lot of ways maybe you're on the other end of the spectrum with performance, but you're usually right there together with like social issues.

And like I've never been diagnosed autistic, but anyone who's gotten to know me is like, it's definitely spectrum.

So there's this concept of when you're somewhere that politically, why can a person who, let's say, believes in LGBTQ rights, believes in equality for all, is really, you know, was probably waving the flag at Black Lives Matter all of a sudden is willing to die on this hill, that Hamas is justified in the murder and rape of of thousands of people, right.

1:02:16

Like, how does that person get there, especially when that person isn't even welcome in the land Hamas occupies?

Like, and you start doing this mental gymnastics and you go, oh, maybe there's a problem to just blanket applying certain sets of values without learning to dig a little deeper into the nuance.

1:02:33

And if I can see that in somebody else, like where does that in me?

Where am I just applying a certain set of like these are my beliefs, but I'm so blindsided by something that would be really obvious if I weren't in my own seat.

Yes, it's all about nuance.

And what I hear you describing with is like people on the end of the spectrum, the autism and then the gifted is like it's all that's just all exclusivity, right.

1:02:55

Like they're both exclusive in their own way and that's not what we're going for, right.

Like we're we're trying to have something that's inclusive and what you mentioned there too is, is intent and so much now it's just like someone hears something out loud and they're like, OK, we better fire that person.

1:03:17

We got to do CYA we're going to be APR nightmare.

Get rid of them.

And I'm like, why can't we use this this mistake, which has been apologized for to spark critical and juicy discussion about the topic.

Yeah, I think people who want to learn, like that's always the core difference.

1:03:37

Like I I very rarely am.

Like I'm going to unfriend you because of a political opinion.

I have decided to unfriend people who say I'm an anti Zionist.

I don't believe Israel has the right to exist and you'll never change my mind because to me that goes Oh well you're whether or not you believe this or understand this, you've essentially said you don't think my people have the right to exist in their in their homeland.

1:03:59

And in many ways, you stand against some of the things that are most important to me.

If you don't, if you're not open minded, you don't want me to change your mind.

You might as well have said, like my grandfather is a wizard in the Klu Klux Klan and I'll never change my mind about black people or Jews And I'd be like, all right, then I don't, I don't need you in my life because my wife's black and I'm a Jew.

1:04:18

Like, we've got no more conversation.

But I've I've actually had deep conversations with people who might just see the conflict differently, because I want to see their perspective and I want to let them know that even though I might be sitting in a different position, I can respect them for that.

1:04:34

And I go that you're just doing your part and you're playing your role and I'm playing mine.

And we're two people who have different roles in this drama.

But I can still love respect to and play the game with you.

Yeah, yeah.

And you also, I really, I really respect you being, you know, in this position, especially with what's happening in this right now, it means a lot.

1:04:57

It's and I think what this is called, although I I've had minimal experience with it at a formal level, is shadow stalking, right.

Like, how can I stalk my own shadow and be like, oh, what am I judgmental about?

Like what am I?

Because there's there's always things that were that are so deeply ingrained, you know, that I was taught at a young age to judge that still crop up for me, right.

1:05:20

So how can I look at that and say, let's get curious about that, You know, why am I keeping that judgment?

Like how does that reflect on me?

How can I be curious about those people that I'm judging?

And it's it's a it's a great exercise to go through, but incredibly, incredibly challenging as well.

1:05:38

I like that and and I think one of the things that I've I've seen about myself in the last, let's call it, two weeks with this specific issue, but also in the last several years with just where our politics have been, I find myself always having content for people I think aren't educated enough and don't have a nuanced point of view.

1:05:57

Whether or not I agree with their point of view, I really get triggered by blanket statements that miss a lot of really important context.

So what I've kind of done with that is I've gone, OK, where is it that I hold a really simplistic point of view?

1:06:13

And where is it that I'm lacking an understanding of nuance?

And where am I not educated on detail, and where can I go do the work to find that detail?

Who do I need to have conversations with?

Who do I need to ask questions of?

And instead of just simply casting off the lot of the world and saying, oh, everyone's an idiot, I go, oh, nobody has time to be informed on every single thing.

1:06:36

What are the issues that I actually want to get informed on?

And how can I save a bunch of time by going to the source of different people who have different levels of expertise and like?

I think I think that's closer to the answer than just simply writing everyone off.

Yeah.

And I would And I would say too, there's lots of issues, right, where I'm like, no, I'm not going to take the time to research that.

1:06:55

I'm just going to trust, you know, my friend Jess who knows much more about it.

Right.

And just say, Yep, you probably do know more about it.

Thanks for thanks for educating me and inspiring me because I, I can't possibly research and go deep on all of these topics.

So yeah, yeah, I love it.

1:07:13

Totally right.

I know We're coming up on time.

This has been beautiful for me.

I hope you've enjoyed it as well.

I have one question I'd like to ask all of my guests, and that's if you could meet anybody.

Who would it be and why?

Boy, you know, what comes to mind for me is, I mean, I have so many authors I'd love to meet.

1:07:36

That's like kind of what pops up first.

I mean, I'd love to meet Anne Lamott and Natalie Goldberg and Martha Beck and Anthony Doerr and like, but in general what I'd love to do is go and meet my parents when they were growing up.

Oh wow.

1:07:52

Like I.

I don't know.

This is just always something to me that is fascinating.

Like I'm so close to them, obviously.

And they were amazing parents.

And we are very different and we've had a lot of differences to to bridge, especially in the last five years.

1:08:09

And I just desperately want to understand them as deeply as I can.

And that's just, you know, something.

Yeah, I think it's just a wish that I have.

It's, it's odd that that's what popped up first.

But I also think that, you know, my fascination with celebrities is pretty low.

1:08:25

Like, there definitely are musicians I adore if, you know, I'd love to hang out with Noah Kahn or Florence and the Machine or the National.

But in general, I don't know if I'd like them or not.

Like, who knows, because I really only know their music.

But I think knowing my ancestors better and knowing like, where I came from and like what drove them, I also just am fascinated by history in a different time.

1:08:49

And like, what was, you know, what was breakfast like for my grandmother in 1920?

Right.

Like I just those things go through my head.

So I guess that's my answer.

That's a beautiful answer.

I really liked it.

Andrew, is there anything you want to leave the audience with or anything you want to leave me with to consider for the rest of my day?

1:09:09

Yeah, I so I do personal brands, strategic storytelling, brand messaging.

I love people helping people be brave with the second-half of their life.

If you are someone who knows that you need to show up differently online, who want you want to claim yourself, you want to be vulnerable.

1:09:26

I take your cornfield and I turn it into a neat shot of whiskey.

I mine you for all your magic.

And I really love that process.

And I love I love helping people feel like they're they're coming home to themselves.

So if you're interested in that, please let me know.

Check out my podcast, Permission to be Human dot Live.

1:09:43

There's also personal and Poly coaching available on that site.

We're also on Instagram at Permission to Be Human and Nate, I just so enjoyed this conversation.

I love vibing with you on so many different topics.

I love to do it again and I'm.

1:10:00

I'm going to have a great day knowing that you're in the world sharing your message.

Wow, thank you so much Andrea.

Likewise, this was a real treat.

I feel like if you've stuck with us and watched this whole episode that you obviously got something out of it.

So please share it with somebody and look in the comments section or the description section or whatever it's called on whatever platform we're on and just click on some links to Andrea so you can learn more about her.

1:10:25

I hope you all have a wonderful day and much love.

Thank you Nate.

Much love.

Bye.