0:00

Hello and welcome to another incredible episode of the Much Love Podcast.

Today, I'm super pumped and thrilled to have my good friend Josh joining us today.

As you'll hear throughout the episode, Josh is an entrepreneur and he's building something pretty incredible, but I also think he's an even better person, so we're going to jam on some personal stuff.

0:20

Josh, I'm really grateful to have you today.

Hey mate, thanks for having me.

I'm a big fan of music, a big fan of self improvement, a big fan of culture and energy.

And so when I look at your background, I see Tim Ferriss, Tools of Titans.

0:36

I see The Lean Startup, I see a book I can't really read the title of.

But then I see my favorite, The Grateful Dead.

Such an eclectic collection there.

I love it, brother.

Thank you.

I like.

I don't know if you can see this one over here.

This is my favorite.

Maybe I'll turn my monitor, but I have a giant London Calling poster over there and probably my favorite is like, I I grew up on like, God, I don't know, like Blink and some free One in Green Day stuff like that.

1:01

But I really come to love like The Clash and like Sex Pistols and like kind of like classic punk.

That's kind of where I'm vibing now.

Cool.

I love it.

I saw Blink 182 in concert with Lil Wayne in 2019 at an amphitheater outside in Charlotte, and I got to tell you, it was the most interesting cultural mash up at that show because there's the people only there for Blink, the people only there for Lil Wayne, and then there's me, who loves both.

1:31

It was just phenomenal.

They look at a Travis Barker like drum thing in the middle of that one, if I'm not mistaken, right?

That was like the overlap.

Yeah, I think I saw them in 29, Might have been 2018.

There was a blink, pointed to a Day to Remember show outside of Chicago that I liked.

And then I saw them at Riot Fest.

1:48

I don't even know how many years back, but it was really good, except like Matt Skiba can't do like the time of the long parts really well.

So I kind of touched out this.

That was just funny for me.

Sure.

What what I find fascinating is this intersection between music and business and entrepreneurship.

2:07

Specifically because music to me is one of the most pure forms of entrepreneurship.

It's this belief that I've found this thing I love, this gift I have, and I want to give it to the world.

And most likely I'm going to eat a lot of shit for a long period of time and most likely I'm going to fail.

2:25

But the only way to succeed is to give myself to it 100% and just kind of go with it and.

Let loose And like, The funny thing is, like, I have so many friends that are into music or playing music and recording music, doing shows.

And the ones that end up being successful are the ones that just stick with it through the long haul of being like, you know, I know my band sucks, but like, I just enjoy doing this.

2:50

I don't care about being broke.

And like, you just do it long enough.

You meet people that are, like, completely outside of your circle whatsoever.

And then they get excused, exposed to music that the artist themselves is always really critical of themselves on.

And you're like, oh wow, this is different.

It's good, you know?

3:06

And it's kind of like this interesting thing of like, no matter how critical you can be of your own art that you create, sometimes other people see it for the first time.

They think it's perfect.

I bought like a new painting this week.

And I really, really enjoy it.

And every time I paint or like, I do like acrylics like that.

3:25

I absolutely like, despise what I create.

And like my girlfriend will be like, oh, it's so pretty or like, whatever.

Like, it doesn't, you know what I'm saying?

And I'm like, this is junk.

But she does the same thing when she paints, it's like, she's like, this is horrible And I'm like, Oh no, that's like really good.

3:42

I.

Think there's this thing in us that especially if we go into the project with like, this is what I envision it.

Or this is how I see it in my head.

And then it's on the paper and it's never how you think it's going to be on the paper.

But the other person is going from nothing to seeing something and it's like, oh, and they can appreciate it.

4:01

I find that I'm infinitely more critical of my painting in my art in general.

Yeah, if I'm not in the best emotional space or if I'm so focused on like the problems of the day I'm trying to solve.

But if I'm super connected to God, if I'm feeling loving and I'm just vibrating with good energy, I look at my art like the painting above my monitor and I go, wow, I can't believe that came out of me.

4:25

Like that's so beautiful and.

Jealous of that in some way?

Like I find, like looking back that during the hardest periods of my life I created the things that I appreciate the most.

I'd like It seems like you get your energy from like a such like so much healthier perspective.

4:45

You know what I'm saying?

I'd say it's a mixture because I've I've created some of my favorite work through immense struggle.

But I appreciate it more when I'm when I'm in a serene place, like, I I'll create something incredible, Yeah.

But if I feel like shit, I'm like, I don't even like how this turned out.

5:03

A week later, I might look at it and be like, wow, this is beautiful.

I don't even know how.

I couldn't even replicate that if I wanted.

To How did you, like, come on to that journey?

I don't mean to, like interview you and ask you questions about it.

Like how did you get to the point where you feel I'll kind of take a step back.

5:21

Creating software is incredibly difficult, and I love what we do so much, but it's never enough.

Like, I'm always thinking about like what we I want in the product like 3 years from now, five years from now, 10 years from now.

And so then anytime I look at it, I'm like, God, if only it had XYZ.

5:40

Oh, you don't say a billion different things.

How do you get to the point where you're like, you just like look at your art and be like, that's really incredible And I'm so proud of myself.

That's a good question.

Some of it has to do with I've painted long enough where I know what it feels like when I'm overdoing it.

6:00

Yeah, I heard a quote, and I don't remember if it was Rick Rubin or if it was somebody else because I was listening to his audio book while I was also just consuming other creative content.

And they said art is all about finding an interesting place to stop where, you know it's never truly complete.

6:18

It's just where did the the process of putting the thing down end.

And so I I guess I I've ruined enough paintings where I was like, fuck, I should have stopped like 30 minutes ago, where now it's oh this feels good.

Let me take a step back and sometimes I paint 5 or 10 minutes at a time.

6:37

I walk away maybe for a day and I come back once it's dry and it's like, OK, is it time for some new layers or not?

And and then now I also do this hybrid thing where I paint on a canvas and then I take a picture of it and I then paint on it with my tablet and I create this digital physical hybrid art.

6:58

Yeah, it's it's interesting.

So are you using What's the name of that new software that everyone's using on their iPad?

Procreate is what I use, yeah.

I've been watching all these, like, YouTube shorts of people making, like, short animations on procreate that are, like, weirdly addictive.

7:15

I need to get myself an iPad and get started on those.

But like, listen me to this.

Like, I think about like the best products that have ever existed, and they're simple, right?

Like they have.

There's not a lot going on.

7:31

It just achieves one thing really well.

It's clearly a tool.

I made a post on LinkedIn about this a little bit ago, like talking about, like, when they removed the headphone Jack from the iPhone and they called it brave.

And at the time, I, like, snickered.

And I was like, yeah, what's brave about that?

7:47

Like, you know, whatever.

But I actually think like the reduction in complexity, even from going from black buttons to just touchscreen to even having less ports, like to the point where I imagine it was some point, they'll have no charging port whatsoever.

It's something about us that just really desires, like that simplicity.

8:06

Like growing up I thought that, like, modern art was fairly stupid or abstract, like, but now, like, I love these big color splashes because I'm like, you know, it's three colors and it makes me feel something and it doesn't need anything more, to your point.

I love that I got to share some of my art with you because that's that's all I do is abstract color.

8:27

I I do things that it's like I couldn't have consciously made, that.

I just let myself have some sort of experience with the paint, and oftentimes there's very cool things that come from it.

Yeah, I respect that.

That's cool.

Let's.

I don't know.

I was about at a date right now.

8:43

But I'm too though after this.

Yeah, after this we should get together and paint.

I like how you brought up Apple because I always use their iPod as a perfect example of what you said.

I personally think the first iPod was trash.

I had a Dell Digital Pocket DJ that was 5X more of a better product in terms of what it could do, the way you could customize your music library.

9:07

I thought it navigated better, it had better battery life, could hold more songs, but clearly did not win in the marketplace.

Dell shuttered that product line very quickly and the iPod got better and better and better and there became different differentiations of it.

9:22

But they started simple and they sold the vision, which I think is is an important part.

Yeah, I mean it's I've always seen Apple as more of a luxury brand than a technology company.

Like I I think they've gotten into, like now they're making out of silicon, they're doing deep tech and some capacity, but it's closer to selling Louis Vuitton bags than it is to selling like, you know, high end technology.

9:45

It's because most of the consumers don't really care.

I agree.

I mean I didn't really have, I didn't have an iPod at the time.

I had a generic MP3 player.

It worked fine, but I wanted an iPod because the cool kids had iPods, not because the functionality was any good whatsoever.

10:01

So I guess it's a distribution question of, like people always talk about like, you know, the first time you do a startup, like you're like maybe like obsessed with product.

The second time you do a startup, you're obsessed with distribution.

But they, they really nailed down brand in a really special way.

10:17

Or it makes people feel it's almost like when you buy Starbucks or like you see all the girls walking down the street and they're athleisure and they're all carrying a Starbucks cup.

It's because like you're not paying $6 for coffee, you're paying $6 for a status symbol.

Sure.

Could see that, especially when I was a kid, I didn't grow up poor by any means, but I grew up with a father who did grow up poor.

10:42

And so I was taught the value of a dollar very early.

I was the one who was responsible for my clothing budget.

I was given money and I I had to make the choices.

So it taught me to to really be more critical.

But for me, it was growing up the, the rich kids that I looked at all wore North Face and they all had certain brand names that I didn't have.

11:04

And I was like, oh, this is the example of like the status that you're talking about.

And I definitely, it took a while to like let myself experience like, oh, if you want to wear this Lululemon shirt, like you can do that with your money.

It's super comfortable and this is actually going to become one of your favorite clothing items.

11:21

Like it's OK to have that luxury.

It's really interesting how that affects you.

Like I I would say it was probably in the same position where my parents had like this crazy divorce when I was growing up.

And the result of that is we lived in a pretty well off, nice, like North Side neighborhood outside of Chicago.

11:40

And I had the experience of being middle lower of the pack of people that are very well off, you know what I'm saying?

But the perspective internally was we have no money despite growing up in like a very nice like two-story home with like multiple, you know what I'm saying?

11:56

Like have all of the amenities that retrospectively now I'm like how the hell do you afford those things?

Like, like, you know what I mean It seems kind of crazy retrospectively now as an adult, but I think it to the number, I mean from the perspective of I'm like like a level of jealousy where you're like oh I want those things.

12:15

I can't have those things.

And then almost like the reverse of it where like I don't want to be part of it at all.

Like I don't want the culture.

I don't want to try to be popular.

I don't want to try to fit in because this is a never ending, like arms race of consumerism.

And I think that's come off on me in a really interesting way where like I don't really particularly like brands anymore.

12:35

And like coming back to it, it's like I almost like I wear the Apple Watch because it's almost an opt out where like I could afford a nice watch.

But it's it's really nice to have some that's like you don't want to play the watch game at all.

Almost like, I feel like people that buy Teslas, they're they they're not playing the car game at all.

12:53

There's like I could get a super nice BMW or this or that or that, but then there's always a slightly nicer car.

But you get like a Model 3 or like a model that's just like that.

And people are like, that's a nice car, you know?

Yeah, I'm not trying to play the car game.

I like that perspective because there is always something like and my dad always taught me that as a as a kid too that there's always going to be someone smarter, there's always going to be someone stronger, there's always somebody better in some capacity.

13:20

And we have this tendency as humans to play this better than, worse than game.

So it's easy for you to go into a community and be like, oh, I'm here on the spectrum of here in our community.

But if you had the perspective that you do now as an adult, you might be like, oh, but my family is like here in the global you know standings of state quality of life or standard of living.

13:44

And it's it's interesting how we can use those, the status symbols as like a better than, worse than thing.

Yeah, it's something you said.

Also, I wanted to intentionally bring up today.

You mentioned being a child of divorce.

I'm unfortunately in that same club, but we got to that club at different stages in our life.

14:03

I'm curious to know how does being a child of divorce, how did that affect you in terms of your your strivings and your ambitions?

And do you think that might have led to you being more success focused or you know, what?

Did you internalize that in any kind of capacity or because you don't seem like the kind of guy who acted out and became reckless when his parents got divorced?

14:23

Oh, I definitely did.

Like, I think that.

Well, I don't know if I was reckless because of a divorce.

Like, I I never like, I didn't smoke or do drugs.

I didn't drink like, I didn't do any like I was.

Listen, man, I played a lot of World of Warcraft, a lot of StarCraft like, and I set my, I think I acted out by sitting in my room on the computer a lot.

14:42

So it was pretty chill in that respect.

But I don't know.

When I was younger, I I think I was fairly chaotic and I'm sure my parents would say that it was difficult to deal with.

I don't know, as it applies to like my life now.

14:58

I think it was the comparison between how my dad's life went after divorce and how my mom's life went where I think my mom as a single mom had a lot of like struggles of like, you know, her family's in New York.

15:15

It was very difficult for her to like she had this big house that was just me and my sister and her and she had to get back into the workforce.

And that was very challenging for her after being a stay at home mom.

And then my dad on the other side, he had no money, right?

15:31

Like his.

He had he he moved into like a one bedroom apartment on the other side of town.

And I remember just going over there as without him trying to make it work and us like getting like clothes from like like the church.

Basically my dad is like my dad's Catholic, my mom is Jewish.

15:49

And that that was also very interesting.

It was like going to Catholic Church every weekend on one side and going to synagogue every week on the other side.

But then seeing my dad kind of grind through it and go from like, you know this one bedroom apartment to like a nice house to a nicer house to a nicer house to like how his whole life can be other.

16:08

It's like, wow, you can like seriously, like get knocked down quite a bit and reform your life as long as you stay committed and consistent to it.

But yeah, I was, I could talk about this all day, but it it really formed the entire, like, essence of me of I think I desired some level of stability.

16:33

You know, like some level of, like, the first thing is like, I think growing up without a dad in your house makes it so you maybe have a lesser respect for older men in some way.

Like, I think that early in my career I'm like, why can my boss tell me what to do?

16:51

Why can this, like, you know, and I'm sure there's studies have been done and like boys that grow up without that kind of male influence, how that affects them.

But on the other side, yeah, it was a deep desire to have massive levels of stability in my life, which I think I found for work, where like work was really the big stabilizing factor.

17:15

You know, I can really relate to the desire for stability.

My parents didn't get divorced until I was 25 or 26 and I had seen entrepreneurship my whole life.

My my grandpa had his own business.

17:30

My dad self-employed.

This idea that one day I'm just going to build something and be on my own was kind of inevitable.

But when my parents started the divorce process, I was at this interesting place of I've been working and working and working and growing and growing my business and it doesn't love me back.

17:49

And I feel empty.

And the stability I had with my parents only two months after me moving out of the house and going downtown to go all in on my business and and grow my market share and all that.

Now all of a sudden their marriage is collapsing and and there's this a little bit of guilt of like, you know, I was there to kind of keep things together and then being like, oh, I really shouldn't have played that role.

18:14

But I guess I say all that to say.

I I leaned into stability and in a time where I could have been like, you know what?

Screw love.

Love is not going to work out.

I thought my parents would stay together.

I ended up doubling down on love.

18:31

I got much more serious with my dating focus and mindset.

I ended up reconnecting with and then dating and getting engaged and marrying my wife and and now like love is the critical theme.

I mean this podcast, the much love podcast.

So I I think that it there's an opportunity for that stability where do we seek that?

18:51

So I find it interesting how how you, you know, manifested that into, you know, a lot of drive and success and focus from a young age.

Yeah, I mean, like, I mean, I think it's similar to you.

It's like everything I do in life is.

I mean, I think it comes down to really two people.

19:08

It's like I love my sister immensely and I love Sarah, who I've been with for like 9 years now, more than I could possibly imagine.

And I think a lot of it from a young age came from not wanting my sister to go through a lot of the pain that I went through for the divorce.

19:27

And then at this point it's, you know, I love Sarah so immensely that I would just do absolutely anything for her, to be completely honest.

And I really see the growing.

The business is like, I have really big dreams for what I want out of my life.

19:45

And I don't know, I I I see it as like the delivery mechanism for that.

Like it fulfils 2 very deep things in me.

One of which is I I need to be able to create and I need to be able to learn and I need to be able to like improve myself.

20:01

And if I don't have a mechanism by which to do all those things, then I almost go stir crazy.

You know, I'm like, I feel very stagnant where I feel stuck.

And maybe this is back to that kind of like security kind of thing is like.

It's almost having like, it manifests, like control over your own destiny.

20:19

Or I'm like, imagine you're in a sales job or a customer success job or something like that, and you're like, you do this one thing every day.

You know, that's terrifying for me because I'm like, how do I learn new things?

How do I get exposed to whatever?

Like how many years do I need to do this before you give me the carrot and the stick that lets me do the next thing?

20:38

That's really fascinating.

You brought that up.

It almost feels like you're reading my mind because when I was at NM for the last 2 1/2 years, that's where I got to.

Like in the beginning when it was exciting and I'm learning and I'm, I'm really developing a lot of skills and I'm, I'm going out and doing something new.

20:55

It felt very entrepreneurial.

But then after about a year or so, when it's like, oh, this is just kind of the same thing over and over again, it really, it sucked something out of me where it was no longer about the the building of business and the joy of of learning and creating.

21:13

But it was like, all right, well, now you just kind of have to keep making phone calls and having meetings and growing your book.

And I'm not wired for that.

Yeah, you're just like you're like, I am far too creative and far too you know what?

Maybe that you love yourself too much to do that.

21:29

And I've I've founded this from 2 perspectives.

One that as an entrepreneur, there's nothing below you, right?

There's honestly nothing below you.

You should get out there.

You should talk to customers.

You should make phone calls.

You do all the things you should do the gritty, shitty work that nobody wants to do on the other side of it when you're doing it for someone else.

21:52

I don't know if I want to do that work.

Well, there's that for sure, but there's also this element of like.

Are you familiar with Simon Sinek's Golden Circle concept of like?

Start with why.

I'm roughly from like go into it.

22:09

So what I love about it, it's not that he said anything revolutionary, but it's a good framework for thinking.

So most people will describe what something is, they'll talk about how to use it and then they'll get into like why you would need it.

But he flips it and saying if you can be grounded in why, then you can think about the how and then you can get to the what.

22:29

So I was really grounded in the why at Northwestern Mutual.

Like, I believe in bringing financial security to as many people as possible.

I believe everyone deserves financial planning.

I believe that their products are really great products.

So I was really solid in the why and I was also solid in the what.

22:45

I like a lot of what they offer, but it was the how that I wasn't finding congruence with my lifestyle.

Like the how.

I wanted to show up and to serve that mission just wasn't there wasn't enough wiggle room and enough creativity.

So when I realized that the the how was in misalignment, I had to come up with a new way how to do it.

23:04

And that's that's really how I got to Nate Ventures.

So I I, I, I definitely agree if you're going to be an entrepreneur, no work can be beneath you or below you.

But it's also really important that how you design your life is congruent with just who you are and and how you thrive best.

23:22

I've been thinking about this for a long time.

Me and Sarah had a lot of conversations about this about, so she's an operating room nurse and obviously that why of nursing is fairly self-explanatory.

You know it's deeply emotionally impactful to help people in some of their scariest moments.

23:42

But also we kind of abuse nurses in the sense that, like, they don't really get time off, they don't really get PTO, They work on the holidays, that it probably don't make as much as they need to make.

And we had these conversations about, like her impacting one individual at a time.

23:58

And how through my life I've gotten a lot of joy out of figuring out how do I impact the most amount of people possible, even if I don't see those people's faces or even if, like, those people don't thank me.

And I and I feel like that's more scalable, you know, But sometimes it's hard to remove yourself from that one-on-one personal connection where it's like maybe as a financial advisor, like I like dealing with one individual at a time to help them.

24:21

But it kind of stagnates you in your own life.

But if you made software or larger business to do that, you're like, you know, I'm providing this value to hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people.

I don't need to see their faces every single time.

But the fact that I'm doing that is a greater good for humanity ultimately.

24:39

Yeah.

I mean, you just described what's the difference between truly building a business that can scale into an enterprise and make massive impact versus how does an individual just engage in one to one.

And I think they're both important and it takes all the types.

24:55

If everyone all of a sudden decided all they wanted to do is impact as many people as possible at scale, like nobody would actually get nobody works done.

Yeah.

So it it does take all types.

I think what was interesting is during COVID, we actually saw what it looks like when you pay nurses what they deserve because a lot of nurses started doing travel nursing and I had clients making upwards of $200,000.

25:19

It was crazy.

And then you start seeing them bank some money and quit nursing.

So I think there's, I think there's this economic incentive for a lot of positions to make it unaffordable to escape.

So you have to keep somebody doing it.

25:37

And I'm, I'm not conspiratorial.

I don't think a bunch of money grubbers got together in a boardroom and started, you know, rubbing their mustache and talking about how can they plot against the working man.

I just think that the way certain numbers and scale work, there's an economic incentive for organizations to keep people doing certain jobs because otherwise they're just not desirable to continue getting fresh blood cycling through.

26:01

That's just my perspective.

Well, I mean, I wouldn't.

I don't think it's conspiratorial to say that you need a certain amount of low skilled labor.

You need a certain amount of mid skilled labor.

You need a certain amount of high skilled labor.

There's openings in certain industries.

We have strategic imperatives as a country that we need to create certain things.

26:17

It's like you need to keep the auto workers employed because at some point those might need to be factories that make tanks like let's be completely honest here, like the industrial base of the country is highly strategic.

And then beyond those things, it's like when we talk about pushing the like the inflation rate, you know what I mean, or inflation rate down by increasing interest rate, right, Like those things are highly correlated and like it is purposeful.

26:42

I don't think that's political of any nature.

So I guess all I was going to say is I don't think it's conspiratorial.

I think it is purposeful, clearly.

And if everyone didn't need to work and didn't need to do anything whatsoever, maybe they would.

26:58

But I guess we'll figure that out when when AI gets good enough and robotics gets good enough and what the world looks like when people don't need to do those jobs.

But until until then, I think we probably just compensate people better for the work that we don't want to do ourselves.

27:15

And we try to figure out ways to make more profitable enterprises that are less blood sucking.

Maybe there's a better way to put out of it, Yeah.

Well, I have something I've been contemplating a lot that I think you're the right guy to ask about this because you study history like geopolitics.

27:34

You're you're a very intentional thinker.

One of the things that I think gets overlooked when we talk about capitalism or just even as a blanket western society progress, one of the things that we we don't pay attention to is like what do we give up in the process Like we've progressed scientifically, we've progressed with standard of living, but a lot of things along the way we've given up has been community based things.

28:03

I think the biggest example is if you look at our current challenge with aging Americans and how big of an industry senior living has gotten and how unaffordable it is for most older Americans.

I think that's a direct byproduct of us being less connected as communities and having less neighborly support and less community supports for our older citizens.

28:26

Is this, is this a bigger trend that you've ever paid attention to that as we as we grow and as we progress like do you look at the things that we give up?

I mean, we're always going to give up something, right?

But like, I'm trying to do the best people formalize.

28:41

I think that that problem is more connected to the rise of social media and the fragmenting of religious culture as an underpinning of Western society than it is of something related to like an economic system like capitalism.

Because you can look at like you know the USSR or like China or like deeply communist States and the community was not really there for people to be completely honest like in fact it was like some of the most aggressively non communitarian societies that have ever existed that would throw their neighbors to the fire to save themselves.

29:19

I think that when we enshrined this country like we had an intentional separation of church and state.

But, and I'm not saying that like I'm trying, not trying to be a stand for religion, but I think there's a lot of other like community aspects like you look at bowling leagues or you know things where people used to have like a third space to concrete together.

29:42

Those have been sharp in the decline and we filled them with these online spaces even like how we're doing this right now.

And I I frankly don't believe that those online spaces provide the same level of emotional depth or connection as the in person communities previously.

29:59

I also think it's really difficult for humans to rationalize like competing in a global environment.

Like you have to think that when our parents grew up, they might be competing with the people in their city or their locality of some capacity.

You know these people, right?

30:16

You know people are getting married to, you know who people are hiring.

And now it's like you're competing with people all over the world who don't really have names or faces to put to it.

You're just, for lack of a better term, you're a database and maybe a resume.

30:34

So it's become really, really like it lacks personal value.

Sometimes I think about it in terms of like serfdom and what I what I really wonder is if medieval serfs actually had higher degrees of happiness because the medieval surf like or you submit yourself to the king so the neighboring like you know the neighbors don't come in and raid you and stuff like that.

30:58

But these people in a very cyclical life, if you go out and you farm or some people are working the town, OK.

When you can't farm then you effectively are chilling.

You know, you have a lot of unstructured time there.

And then they have the churches, this Community Center that binds their society together, where the king is there to defend or the Lord is there to defend you and the church is there to fulfill you.

31:23

And I also think people are more connected to the earth at that time.

Quite a bit.

You're growing the food that you're eating I.

Don't know.

I think it's globalism and technology more than it is capitalism.

31:38

I think you're right about that.

I think that where where I kind of start to conflate the two of them is like a lot of capitalism has rapidly been accelerated by technology.

And so, for example, if you think about like the long tail economy we've really left, the era of mass hit making where we don't have the Top 40 era doesn't really exist anymore.

32:03

We're not all watching the same 4 channels.

Like it's sometimes I'll sit in a conversation and everyone's listening like what are you watching?

And it covers 10 different streaming platforms.

And like, maybe there's alignment on three shows.

But the reason I'm getting to that point is I think because there's so much ability for the individual to find fulfillment in what they like, there's far less incentive to find a community of people to come together for entertainment, in leisure, in fulfillment, that we're just more fractured in that way.

32:33

And it's maybe not just the byproduct of capitalism, but it is technology making it easier for a person to be more isolated.

For sure.

I mean, like, I look at culture right now.

At some point culture became politics.

And I think the reason for that is because politics was the only thing that everyone was watching.

32:52

You know what I'm trying to say, Like, to your point, there was no TV.

There was not like Lost, if you remember that I was on the air.

Or like, what was it heroes after that?

Or like these kind of like big shows that were happening when growing up that everyone was watching and you know, there's no Top 40 hits, everything's been come fragmented down to you can watch exactly what's for you.

33:11

You can listen to exactly your music.

And to the benefit of artists like we were talking about before, it allows more people to run shows, it allows more people to make music and to reach an audience.

So there's more diversity in choice and you can say there's benefits of that diversity in choice.

33:30

And I definitely think for the creator there is, but for the consumer, the cultural bond is definitely what we're giving up there.

So I don't know.

I don't know what the solution is because I don't know.

It's like a Pandora's box where I don't know if you'd ever want to go back.

33:46

Sure, I think you.

Don't think you go back.

I just economically you're familiar with the idea of opportunity cost.

You even, you know, subtly mentioned you're always giving up something.

I just think it's the more we go forward, it's important to look back and realize, huh, like maybe this is a thing we forgot to bring with us and we willingly or knowingly slow one area of focus to give a little bit more attention to another area.

34:11

That's that's just kind of how I operate in my personal life.

I don't know if it's possible at scale.

I think it'll be possible at scale a while from now.

Like, I think that for the majority of Americans to feel that I think robotics and AI is going to take up need to take a big leap forward because like it's about the amount of free time that you have to really explore those things, you know, if you don't have the free time.

34:39

And like that's under the assumption that that we don't just fill the void with more work.

Because like there's always the example of like tractors where it's like just because we've tractors, unless people are farming, doesn't mean those people weren't busy.

They all went to factories, you know, they moved to the cities and they just filled their time with something else, so.

34:55

You're definitely right about that.

I know this is tangential.

I know we were talking about music at the beginning.

You talked about being more connected to the land.

What popped in my head is a documentary I just watched on Netflix called Rumble, and it's about the Native American influence on rock'n'roll.

35:13

And I I thought it was fascinating because I'm aware that Native Americans were treated just as bad, if not worse than enslaved people who were brought over from Africa.

And there's there's a lot of like knowledge on that.

But yes, subtleties about how native music was banned, how a lot of natives were killed because that was seen as political uh, uprising in the especially from like their dancing designed to help them try and fight back against the white man's oppression.

35:45

And to see how that mixed with black American culture is essentially the foundation from which all rock'n'roll really sprung.

I just thought was absolutely incredible.

I mean, have you, have you ever seen anything about that that topic?

36:02

I haven't read anything about the topic.

What was going to relate it to is like Louisiana, which I know sounds like wild, but like I I think culture comes from struggle in Louisiana.

Like it was a French speaking colony for a very, very long time and it like near the 1920s we basically enforced everyone to speak English.

36:22

And if you go down there now, you'll still realize that like culture is pervasive compared to the States and neighbor it with regards to their music, the food, the art, everything.

And it's because the culture was repressed.

36:39

So if you repress a group, be it slaves or Native Americans or whatever, the culture will always bubble up.

And then their culture becomes our culture.

You know where he like.

Bring up Louisiana, because that's actually very predominant.

In the documentary, they they talk about this blend of there's a lot of people who present as somebody you might just call black, but they're also Native American.

37:02

Well, yeah, also Creole.

I mean, my wife's Creole too.

But when you think about what what the context of the time was, in certain places it was better to be considered black than it was to be considered an Indian.

There is somebody telling their story about in some places it was better to be considered an Indian than a Mexican or vice versa.

37:23

But really, what it all is is just things that were considered not white and what they were where they were at.

What degree of not whiteness was considered the most egregious?

Well, yeah, I mean like that comes down to like how like I'd say the Anglicans effectively defined whiteness.

37:41

Like and like, I don't know, it's eventually they came over and originally, like Irish people weren't even white, right?

Irish were sub English, right?

And then they had to bring over someone to be the laborers.

And then Long story short, like eventually Italians were considered white, A prior Italians weren't considered white.

38:02

And I think it's just we've all been under this really stupid thing that is Anglican culture of what we were infused with there.

And it's it's all stupid because it's they put themselves at the top, you know, they're like, this is our country, we're at the top, we're defining what this word means and then we'll slowly let in more groups.

38:23

And that's where the bullshit starts, for lack of a better term, is.

I love it.

Yeah, dumbest thing in the entire world.

It's like someone could do the exact same thing in another culture where you could just show up somewhere and like or, you know, they did the same thing in Mexico, actually, where they're like, oh, you're mestizo or you're this or whatever.

38:44

They put the Spanish on the top, right?

Born in Spain, at the very top, born in Mexico, but Spanish below that all the way down.

And I I think we're as a society still dealing with that anarchic view that was imposed higher, like an imposed hierarchy.

39:04

Effectively it's it's really dumb and it's really a mindset for us to view society through.

But most of our culture has come through that.

So like the culture is like like Blues and jazz, it's like bubbled up through that and Blues and jazz because that influenced rock'n'roll and blah blah blah blah.

39:25

And usually what you're seeing here, for lack of better term, is some marginalized group of the times creates a new art form and then somebody later co-ops it, right?

Like maybe you say Elvis brought rock forward, but you know who taught Elvis what this music was?

39:44

Yeah, no, you're you're exactly right.

And it's a breath of fresh air.

Especially to hear things that are a straight out of like my world history class.

Like I I was really grateful.

I got taught that perspective, the idea of like the the seven layer cast system of Latin America, because it helped me understand.

40:03

Why people have certain beliefs and why people have this ingrained.

And while I would never wish the trauma and the oppression on somebody to see how that created the beauty that came out through the art, which is kind of where we started the conversation.

40:18

And talking about you've created some of your best things when you're going through some of your most challenging times.

I I think that there's this interesting perspective between struggle and pain and something to push back against.

And as there become less and less things to push back against like how much how much drive is there to get that thing out of you that that is that pain.

40:41

So I I would not saying like we should go perpetuate more negative things like slavery or or killing of indigenous people.

I just think that there's it's the yin and the Yang of how life works that like there there's always an exchange and sometimes when there's a really big negative, there's also a really good positive that comes up behind that.

41:00

I think when you have nothing left, the only thing that you can do is create.

Like if you have nothing, you can sing.

If you have nothing, you can draw in the dirt.

You know what I'm trying to say?

It's like it's it's all you have is that you're you and that you have your brain and inside your own head you're free, you know?

41:20

So, like, I think creativity has to come from some kind of desire to create.

There's something there that you need to get out of yourself very, very, very badly, and then you're manifesting into reality.

I think that's like without a level of pain, people can create beautiful things.

41:39

But I, I think even I, I wonder about this a lot where it's like you'd like Elon Musk, where like his, I'd say his desire to create was probably down to his really poor relationship with his dad.

Right.

And like if you read the book, that's kind of, it's like Steve Jobs, like seems like a really troubled person, to be frank, all these people are troubled, you know, and it's that they have this mechanism by which it maybe this is the benefit of capitalism.

42:06

Or at least it's what I believe is the benefit of capitalism is that it gives people an endless level of growth to push these desires through.

You know, because if you didn't have that, if you didn't have that mechanism to, like, endlessly create things and be rewarded for that endless amount of effort, but then you'd be just pushing against the system.

42:31

You know, you'd be trying to break down the walls and overthrow government.

You'd be trying to do all these things that were fairly destructive.

And it lets us channel that energy into something that's ultimately good.

Yeah, I don't know.

But yeah, I think creativity at the bottom is like, that's all.

42:49

That's all we are.

That's all we have.

And maybe that's OK.

Like, I I know that my deepest desires for like, creating things come from that kind of space.

And I think that it's driven me and will continue to drive me.

43:09

And I don't know when I'll feel fulfilled, when I'll have created enough.

But I know that I'm proud of myself, what I've done so far.

But I know I have so much farther to go that I haven't even scratched like the surface.

Like if I'm a rocket ship, I'm like, I'm on the like launchpad and people are checking to make sure everything is OK before we take off to go to like, you know, Alpha Centauri or something silly.

43:34

That's a beautiful analogy for people who have no clue what we're talking about.

What is it that you are?

Creating.

Oh yeah, This is only like 45 minutes in.

So yeah, what I'm really passionate about is bringing meritocracy and transparency to the private markets and we diluted that by providing real time financial data on private market assets.

43:56

That sounds really complicated and I probably lost a lot of people there.

But effectively the private markets makes up 97% of all businesses in our economy.

In the United States, it's roughly $20 trillion traded assets a year.

There's very little understanding of what happens inside these companies.

44:16

There's a lot of fraud that happens.

So you can bring up big fraud cases like Frank where JP Morgan bought this company that did nothing or high profile things like FTX and farinose.

There's also a lot of people that you know would invest in businesses.

I've seen about this during COVID where there's small businesses that are asking for donations and things like that.

44:36

There's no easy way to like buy equities in these businesses to fund them.

Acquiring the businesses can be quite difficult as well and even like as a start up founder getting liquidity is very difficult and really the whole market like is built on top of liquidity.

44:51

So if you can find better rails to achieve liquidity in the private markets then you can increase the velocity at which ideas are funded and created which ultimately helps society move forward a lot faster.

But yeah, in cute is it'll be the data layer for the entire private markets.

45:09

If you want to think about that like a Bloomberg Terminal or you know, that's that might be a good framing device if you understand how the public markets work.

So I I obviously understand everything you said because we talk about it a lot and I've spent time in the financial industry.

45:25

But for anybody who's just a casual listener who also has no clue about how finance works at a high level, what Josh basically said is that the vast majority of companies are private and there's a lot of challenges for them to get money as well As for them to give accurate reports to the people who invest in them.

45:45

A lot of honesty and clarity to the whole process so it's easier to fund companies based on what their numbers actually look like.

Is that a pretty good basic summation?

That is is a pretty good understanding of it.

I love it.

I I love how from one perspective, like as a tech nerd, I go, oh, I understand what it means to prepare financial statements.

46:08

I understand what it means to evaluate potential investments.

I'm shocked that so many companies don't have a better solution in place from a like a solving of a problem.

Technically I go this is a beautiful concept.

But what I think touched me even more the last time we spoke was the the higher aspirational why behind the business, which is really to increase transparency and eliminate fraud.

46:32

Talk about why that actually matters, other than the fact that like, fraud is bad, but like the real world implications of when we allow this fraud to perpetuate.

Yeah, I mean, one, it honestly makes like life as an entrepreneur harder, right?

Like I would love for everyone to be trusting and open and honest, but there's a lot of BS out there, right?

46:54

Like FOMO and cloud are really big factors in the Techstar world.

But beyond that, I think about US innovation as a whole.

So I'll give you this bucket of money, let's call it US innovation.

And that goes into everything from defense spending to making the next cancer drug to all of these things that we appreciate in our lives, right?

47:13

The ability to talk right now, our phones, our TV's, it's all US innovation.

And if we can and a lot of things that get funded or get created, they fail.

And if we can reduce the failure rate of those by understanding how they're performing, understanding how to help these businesses, understanding the risks more effectively, then there can be a better throughput of innovation into society.

47:36

And those dollars are more effectively spent, which ultimately leads to a better world for me, a better world for you, and also more trust up and down the economic system.

I think that corruption is something that we're unwilling to accept Women government and I would say that for how unwilling people are to accept that I'm unwilling to accept corruption and lying in the business world.

48:03

I think it is defrauding investors like what like someone like Madoff did is completely despicable and I know people can find that alienating where they're like oh like you know that only affected the rich.

It doesn't matter those people worked for that money.

It's it's not fair if it was something that defrauding someone, you know, giving someone a fake product that didn't work that cost $10 or defrauding someone of $1,000,000 investment, like money is relative to different people.

48:30

And people should be able to trust in the financial system.

They should be able to trust in visionaries who want to create things.

Like if you're Elizabeth Holmes and you're trying to make fair nose and you're pitching this idea of the future, that's wonderful and you're taking those people's money to do it and it's all bullshit.

48:47

I I mean, I think she set women in entrepreneurship back dramatically.

And I think that's unfortunate and I think it's wrong.

And I think that money, the hundreds of millions of dollars that were spent on that lie, could have been better spent on drugs for AIDS or cancer or, you know, entrepreneurs that actually were making things that were viable.

49:09

Now I'm curious to know a little bit more about why do you think that that specifically set women back?

And do you think that there's like a double standard and how female founders are judged versus male?

Because like a lot of times, it's gone.

Because of what?

49:24

It's volume.

It's like, OK, so if you have too high profile, like, I'll put it this way, right.

So in the last little bit, the big fraud cases have been FTX founded by a man and then Frank founded by a woman and Farin was founded by a woman.

But the percentage of overall women in venture and in startups is exceedingly low.

49:47

So then like, I also think it's like we could get into like sexism and help people perceive genders and stuff like that.

But I think it's just like, it's a lot for a group that's already struggling to get their foot in the door.

You know, I'm trying to say like we've seen hundreds of male entrepreneurs before.

50:05

You're not going to compare every single one to SPF, you know?

But we haven't seen that many breakout successes of female run businesses.

I think like Canva and Spanx are incredible examples of like women that are just like, killing it.

But Canvas not like a deep tech company and Spanx is a CPG brand, so I think.

50:29

Yeah.

Well, if I'm hearing it properly, it's that this perspective of the amount of women entrepreneurs who've been funded at that level playing at that field who then perpetuate that level of fraud, it's just percentage wise, a bigger number or so when you talk about volume, I I get that perception comparatively, yeah.

50:49

I'm not trying to say it might not actually be a bigger number.

It's a perception thing based on how the news perpetuates.

It.

I get that.

I hope that's not the case because I hope that, you know, they could be seen as individual actors.

But I certainly understand how an industry doesn't always behave rationally.

51:05

I mean the very fact that there are VC firms out there who have a thesis and like we want to promote female founders or we want to promote diverse founders or we want to promote.

So like, I think that there's an opportunity for somebody to take a narrative and run with it.

51:22

One thing that I think is actually kind of relevant here, you are not in any protected category that allows you to get access to special funding from special VCs.

Have you seen a change in the environment since the affirmative action ruling in the education space has now started to have ripples in the VC space?

51:43

Like, is that, is that actually causing any waves and are you seeing any because a lot of your customers are VCs?

Are you seeing anything change now because of that?

I mean, I mean, I'm the wrong person to ask about that, to be completely honest.

People want to make money.

People will go where the money is, right?

51:59

If if someone has a good idea, I think, and they're hard working, I think they'll get funded.

Sure.

And well I know that's your your ethos for sure and that's been the example of of a lot of that's how VC works.

I was just curious to know if any of your customers who might have played in that space are changing their thesis or like I know the I think it's fearless fund is currently being sued.

52:20

Right now.

So I just, I didn't know if any of that had affected any of your customers at this point.

No.

Like mostly what we're trying to touch is like girlfriend, like it's seriously black and white to like we want to help people make more money.

Yeah, I don't know.

I think that a lot of the the funds like that are a lot earlier stage.

52:39

Sure, they're precede their seed funds or things like that.

They're not like you don't see like a Sequoia or like a tiger or something like that.

Taking those kind of stances.

And I and I think like there's ESG that definitely exists, but it's not.

I don't think that's necessarily what you're talking about.

52:55

No.

And it's and I think that you know it doesn't affect your customers at the level you're targeting.

So that's it's at least helpful feedback.

I had a the previous podcast we talked a bit about this topic as well.

So I I just think it's interesting.

I'm waiting to see kind of how that plays out to kind of bring things back to where we started.

53:15

I know we were talking about creativity, talking about art, talking about music.

I get a lot of my greatest influences from watching documentaries and reading about people who've had success in music.

A question I ask every guest of mine is if you could meet or talk to or be introduced to anybody at any point in time, who would you like to meet and why?

53:40

That's hard.

When it's growing up, I think it was like Ishmael, God, Ishmael, Isaiah, I think his name is.

I might get this wrong.

I read this book about a boy, a boy soldier in like Liberia called A Long Way Gone when I was growing up.

53:57

And that was a really big influence on me.

And the guy like made it out of this war zone and moved to the US And I just wanted to like learn more about that experience.

If that book was 1000 pages longer, I would have continued reading it.

Yeah, like it was probably a 200 page book.

54:14

But I'm just like, oh, this is like fascinating.

It gave me a lot of perspective.

I'm like reading about he had a whole section talking about an elevator or an escalator rather is that he got to New York and one he'd never seen like multi story buildings before.

But then also like the fact that the stairs moved and took him to the second floor was like worth writing two or three pages about And that was like really interesting.

54:38

And it's the same thing as, like, this is not really.

There's a memory that always comes back to you just like reading catch from the rye.

And when we're like, holding Caulfield's, like, throw like a snow bar ball at a car and it decides not to.

That's what we got to think about a lot.

Where it's like, oh, you could have ruined good things, but like, good things.

54:56

Like you should appreciate simple things like that effect that car is clean, or the fact that we get to go up to the next floor, like, automatically on the, like, robotic stairway is very cool.

I think now I'd love to talk to Henry Kissinger.

That'd be fascinating for me.

55:14

He probably tops the list.

Why?

Why Henry Kissinger?

I think Henry Kissinger has probably lived one of the most interesting lives of any human being in the last like 400 years.

He has had his hands in more things and in more rooms than I think it's describable.

55:30

Like this is a man who has formed or helped shape global policy and what we're doing in the post war, like the post war era.

Yeah, I mean, I could talk about it for hours.

55:48

I I think I'd ask him about like like why staying in the Vietnam War or we're not pushing harder to continue with it.

About like his perspective on like what the long term goals of like the Cold War were.

56:05

And if he feels like it's actually over or not.

If it's like still continuing, if this is just a continued Cold War and we said we won, but it's just an ongoing trend.

Yeah.

That's an interesting question and I I think that if you we're paying attention to where our politics are right now as it relates to our relationship with Russia and you didn't have a vested interest in believing the Cold War was over, you might look and go.

56:29

It doesn't really feel too, too warm between those two.

Yeah.

And I I always think about like countries like little cells, like youth blobs And these little colored blobs, they're all different colors.

And the blobs want to absorb the other blobs and make like pretty good red blobs and green blobs.

56:45

And the green BLOB just keeps growing and eating all the little red blobs.

And then eventually like the green BLOB gets so big that it fragments into like multiple other blobs.

And those blobs are all different colors.

And then they start eating each other all again, which is like you have a bunch of tribes, those tribes consolidate into like cities and those cities consolidate into like States and like those states, you know what I mean?

57:05

And eventually it's like the the whole world will be like one, like UN run federalist system.

And then you know, Mars will be like, hey man, I don't like being owned by you guys anymore.

And they'll be like a big like planet war or whatever.

And then whoever wins that will have the dominant culture and they'll go on and on and on kind of.

57:24

Reminds me of like Rick and Morty and then or a more polished like Dune or Star Wars or Foundation.

Have you seen Foundation on Apple TVI?

Haven't.

I've been told I need to watch that, and apparently also silo is very good and I can't watch that either.

57:40

I haven't watched Silo yet but foundation specifically for this concept of of empires and revolution.

I think that and it being across a Galaxy and sci-fi technology, I just I think it's one of the most interesting shows I've seen in a long time and it has a lot of elements of what made Game of Thrones a compelling watch.

58:02

But whereas Game of Thrones was very much like feudalism mixed with fantasy, and it was still like this, predominantly like white European kind of thing that occasionally got a little bit more flavor, this is more like intergalactic, in my opinion, way more badass.

58:22

I just hope it continues at this level.

Yeah, it's weird how people have like a weird, like this innate fascination with like the rise and fall of nations.

You know, like everyone loves a good hero's journey of a people.

It's it's so captivating.

Like, I think that's the basis of the Bible, right?

58:39

It's like, it's like, I don't know.

I don't know why I brought that up.

I just think it's like fascinated me.

Well, I've got Jay-Z on my wall and he's got a line where he says Dark Knight feeling die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain, which is obviously, you know, from Batman.

58:58

But this idea that we're all on this journey, and to your point earlier, talking about what you observed from your father when you could see somebody have their fall but then rise again, like that's, that's part of why we like it.

59:13

We like.

People who are the underdog because they have somewhere to go, but we also like to knock them off the pedestal because I think we want to see if they can make their way back up again.

Yeah, the redemption story is always a good one.

It's like, I don't know.

And maybe there's just like someone who's been knocked off a few pedestals in his life.

59:31

Like learning just to never stay down is probably like the best thing ever.

I like that.

Never stay down.

No, just like it's like I'm.

I don't know.

I was talking to, like, landed about it a while ago, where it's talking about being a cockroach, like kind of this little interview thing.

But I think you just, like, do not let people crush you.

59:49

You know what I mean?

They can knock you down 100 times over.

You're not going to be rich tomorrow.

You're not going to be yours the next day.

Maybe you'll never reach your idea of success, but like, if you let people stomp on you and hold you down, then you sure as hell won't do it.

So I think it is in a long game, you know, it's like, if you look at like, it's like I view life like a stock market curve kind of thing where it's like if you're viewing this in like day trading terms, you're like oh shit, I just like lost a ton.

1:00:13

I'm way down.

But if you look at like the long thing, you're like, oh, I went up and they got pushed down and then going up and I get pushed down.

It's always 2 steps forward, one step back, and then like almost like reveling in how much of a piece of shit you feel like when you get like pushed down a little bit because then it just makes you stronger the next time.

1:00:32

Like, I view it as like, I'm like always evolving and becoming stronger and stronger and stronger and stronger and just like maybe it's like keeping like a childlike mindset of like staying like mentally flexible to understand how to like beat the next person.

I can talk.

1:00:48

This makes me want to talk about StarCraft, which I think is the most fascinating thing on the planet.

Yeah, I I love what you're talking about and I just pulled up something in another tab.

So if you're if you've been with us this whole way, you know be patient with me while I read something.

But what you talked about touched on.

1:01:06

I might have talked about this on this podcast but I'm in the middle of a of an art project that is an 81 part series.

There's a book, Dao Dei Ching, which is the book of the way, and there's these 81 chapters or or verses, and they describe a lot of what goes into Taoism.

1:01:27

And when I found myself at a really dark place, the most depressed I'd been in a long time.

Last year, I leaned into this as a concept of an art project.

And right now I'm working on chapter 13 and it says something that you had just mentioned.

One of the translations is success is as dangerous as failure, Hope is as hollow as fear.

1:01:49

What does it mean that success is as dangerous as failure?

Whether you go up the ladder or down it, your position is shaky.

When you stand with your two feet on the ground, you will always keep your balance.

What does it mean that hope is as hollow as fear?

1:02:05

Hope and fear are both phantoms that arise from thinking of the self.

When we don't see the self as self, what do we have to fear?

Seeing the world as yourself?

Have faith in the way things are.

Love the world as yourself.

1:02:21

Then you can care for all things.

And what I love about that is this idea of these arcs of us going up and down, up and down.

If our success is pinned on the belief of where are we on the ladder, we're never going to be successful.

But if we're rooted in some sort of foundational belief on what our personal success looks like, and getting outside of our small ego self and seeing that we're part of a much bigger picture, that can be a much more lasting feeling we can embrace regardless of where we're at.

1:02:51

I I think about it one, it was beautiful, just like and I I'm sort of thinking a lot about like how I look at the world when you said it.

But I I think about it in a really simple way of, you know, if you're always trying to make other people happy, then you're probably failing because it's like you're like, oh, like one day I'm going to prove that guy right or that guy wrong.

1:03:11

It's like, it doesn't matter, right?

Like, just do things, beat yourself.

Like, you know what I'm trying to say?

Like what if you did, if you lifted £150 yesterday, you know, try to lift 160 lbs.

Not to prove someone else right or wrong, right just to kind of push yourself to the next level, you know, because it's more holistic that way.

1:03:33

It's like, I think people like a redemption story, but it's not worth your time to get revenge.

I like that.

I think I want to end on that.

Yeah.

Josh, this was beautiful.

As always, it's a treat when we get to share time together, but I appreciate us doing it on this this platform.

1:03:52

Of course.

Nate, I love talking to you.

Awesome.

Well, everybody who's been listening, it's been a real treat.

Much love And until next time, see you.