0:09

Hey, and welcome to the much love podcast.

My name is Nate Ruben and I'm thrilled to introduce our guest today, Nathan Fails.

Nathan, how are you?

Doing great.

Super excited to be here and to chat it up with you, Nate.

The reason I have Nathan on the show today is twofold.

0:26

As you know, I like to have people on I think are interesting and just chat about what matters to them.

But Nathan and I met in a business context were part of the same networking group specifically for people in the agency space and and Nathan had a really good offering that I wanted to learn about for some of my clients.

0:44

We got to know each other and and not only were we able to do business, but we started talking about some things personally that I just I felt that our our stories clicked and there were some things for me to learn about Nathan where I'm just super excited to have you as a guest today.

I'm thrilled to be here.

Glad we could obviously get connected the first time and always get doing business.

1:03

But yeah, definitely been waiting for the the sequel to the start of what was a really interesting conversation and kind of got cut off by, you know, things we had to do.

Sure.

Well, for context, for the listeners or the viewers, you want to tell us where you're you're tuning in from today.

Yeah.

So I'm I'm in the United States and just about an hour South of Salt Lake City.

1:23

I'm in a town called Provost.

So beautiful this time of year just amazing mountains.

I mean it's it's a driving hazard.

You just like always want to have your your face just like plastered to the mountains.

So beautiful Mountain West just South of Salt Lake.

I love it.

And yeah, you can kind of see in your background it's a little blurred, but you can tell he's somewhere beautiful.

1:41

I think when we when we met I was at my my dad and my stepmom's in South Carolina and we were on a on a lake and I had a a good background for you to check out.

Oh yeah, yeah.

I've been meaning to get down to to South Carolina.

It's one of those places.

There's actually a huge group of people from Utah moving to South Carolina right now.

1:59

So I know several people who either family there or moving there.

And so I I need to get out there.

Cool, very cool.

The context for how we met business wise, you run a talent sourcing agency, but it's pretty unique and I think your back story for how you got started is it's definitely interesting.

2:16

Interesting because the way you got started is similar to how many people I know who've started successful businesses.

And it's, in my opinion, really inspirational because somebody can follow your mold just as it applies to their life.

2:32

But you want to give us a little background on what is it that you do and kind of how you got there?

Sure.

So I'm one of the Co founders of a company called Go Carpathian and for context and I suppose we should have factored this in when we named the company.

But the Carpathian Basin is is a specific geographic region.

2:51

It's kind of almost like the tail end of the Alps.

It's it's a nice basin in what most Americans would call Eastern Europe, a little bit more central.

So these are all the countries of like Hungary, Serbia, Romania and then a little bit down into you know Montenegro and those are actually the countries that we we source from.

3:10

And so, yeah, we've been running it for about a year now, fortunate in the last couple months to have had some great growth and especially to just be working with really, really great agency owners.

So we've been really, really excited about the things that have been going on recently.

Well, and specifically, not only do you work with people from that region, but you help source talent who can do a variety of roles for marketing agencies, really solving a few different challenges.

3:37

One, how do you connect a group of people who are very talented but maybe don't have a super large market where they live with?

Two, a group of people who are trying to create a really effective machine or system to serve their clients, but maybe they don't need everyone to be in person.

3:54

So it's kind of like this perfect blend of of opportunity on both sides of the equation.

Yeah, yeah, totally.

I mean I think you you said it perfectly.

I mean there's there's definitely lots of people in like the overseas hiring space.

Obviously like everyone's heard of companies that source front, you know virtual assistants from the Philippines.

4:13

And I think I think the core insight and maybe the the core differentiator at this stage is that we're sourcing marketing talent from these countries in in Eastern Europe which are more expensive than the Philippines.

But the closeness and culture in, in training in you know business acumen, it's so close to kind of what we are in the West that it's like a lot of these team members like are way better qualified than some of my American you know peers and also you know are able to do the job for much cheaper for various you know economic reasons.

4:48

And so it it creates this kind of win, win, win dynamic because we have to find talent at a price that you know our agency owners or our teams can't afford and it's a it's a good price for them.

We have to negotiate with the contractor in the middle.

We have to find kind of a point to profit and so far that's come with its own set of challenges but it is extremely rewarding because it's like just like straight delivering value, you know like that's that's all we're doing.

5:11

We're just making the connections, getting everyone together and it's it's bled to some cool, cool stories, I think.

I love it.

And especially because you know, I don't think this idea of sourcing global talent is quite the hot button issue it was when you, you know you first heard outsourcing like or all of our jobs going overseas, you know that's it's such a fearful perspective, this idea of like we're losing something where is what I like to think effectively partnering with companies that source talent like you do globally is you're actually elevating the global marketplace for commerce.

5:44

And it's not that every single job should be done by somebody for the lowest possible cost, but it's looking at what is the skill set required, what's the budget requirements, what's the output capability and and more importantly, just what's what's the fit like.

6:03

And you can't always find the person to do the job and to be domestic for the rate that you want while also getting the same quality you need.

And at the same time, geographic restrictions, like where somebody lives shouldn't keep somebody from having a better quality of life.

6:22

So I feel like the people who don't like outsourcing, it's been this very like US only focus.

But it often times completely ignores the fact that you're elevating the quality of life for somebody in another country and you're you're really doing something to be a great global citizen.

Yeah hundred 100%.

6:38

And I I think you touch on something that is is important like occasionally you know we we get the the feedback you know you're you're taking advantage of people you know this is you know this that the other thing and and I think there's a core misunderstanding of like of of the factors at play here because it it truly has to be this win win win environment for it all to work.

6:58

And I I loved I loved especially what you said about like it's it's not about getting like the the minimum viable person to do the job for the lowest cost.

Like I think that's you know whatever it was 4 hour work week which we've all read or you know something along the way.

I think everyone got this idea of outsourcing that like we're going to outsource it to the cheapest possible you know vendor regardless of the price.

7:22

And and that's I mean age it's not possible since it's more expensive where we source from it And B, like it.

I think as you pointed out like it, it ignores the reality of what you're actually trying to do like the problem that you're trying to solve And what's you know it's so great is I mean we're just so culturally close to Europe that it's especially Eastern Europe I think much more so in in many ways than than Western Europe that the we we've actually never really had a problem with like cultural integration.

7:49

You hear a lot of that with other, with other countries where maybe their their cultures are based on different things but like we're we're all kind of running the same operating system in, in one way or another, if that makes sense.

Yeah, And I I think so, speaking in generalities, not to to be speaking in stereotypes or saying everyone from here or this is that person.

8:09

But if you think about the generalities of culture, one of the biggest knocks on Western European culture for a long time has been, you know, they just don't want to work very hard.

Some of like countries like France, you know, they've led the way in the labor movement and a lot of standards of of living there.

8:26

Or people go to Italy and they're like like, when do these people work?

Like it seems like everything is pasta and cappuccino, you know, and espresso and and you know, nap time, which isn't accurate.

But their culture just tends to be more about quality of life and enjoying their Senate, their environment.

8:42

Whereas you think about central or Eastern Europe and some of what they've gone through in in their struggles for independence in certain countries, their struggle for economic opportunity after being part of a the largest scale of communism that ever existed.

8:58

They just have a different level of hunger, which is the, you know, the thesis of what America is about.

Like give me your tired, give me your poor, give me your huddled masses.

America only works if we continue to have a next stage of people who are extremely motivated, extremely hungry and passionate, who want to work.

9:18

And we don't have the immigration rules that allow all of those people to be here.

But if we can work with them while we're here and they're there, I think that's a win.

Win also. 100% I I I love that.

I mean some of the and, and I guess I mean not not to get too political, but I mean the, the immigration debate in the United States I think is really veered off course from the fact that, like, some of the greatest minds in the world want to come to America.

9:45

Because, you know, for all of the things that are wrong in our country, like, this is a wonderful country with opportunity that is almost unbelievable to people in in other countries.

And for centuries, America, like you said, has been that place to take people.

And, you know, you start at the bottom of society.

10:02

You work your way up, your kids, your grandkids, your great grandkids, they're all going to have a better quality of life.

And that promise is just so, you know, it's just so magnificent.

It's so rare I think.

But if we really like zoom out on a historical perspective, that is a historical anomaly to be able to start at the lowest paying jobs and for your kid and your grandkids to be one of the elites.

10:23

And so I mean like it honestly, like if if we could overhaul US immigration policy and get all of our wonderful hard working, talented Eastern Europeans and American go out of business, like I think I'd happily take that trade.

But in the meantime like you said, it's it's not, it's not possible for a number of reasons.

10:39

One of which is you know they would need sponsors if you haven't worked for American companies that's going to be very difficult to get picked up by the right company with the resources to really go through that.

So in in some ways like you know we we we retain talent for a very, very, very long time.

10:55

But you know, ultimately, like, if they want to go to the States and work for the company in person, sure, like we'd love to have them, you know?

Well, and and one thing that I think is unique and not even just your business model, but how certain regions are focusing on dominating in certain areas.

11:11

Like historically German engineering has been a thing where Germans, Japanese with their cars.

Eventually Korea became popular with like Hyundais and and and Kias.

But this idea of having like certain specialty that globally you become known for, one of the things that's interesting about like another country, I have a lot of reference for Israel.

11:34

They have different pockets of the country that are focused on startups in very specific segments of the economy and different things that they could be helpful in.

And I think we also see that in the global talent force, something that's very popular in Nigeria, for example, is like fintech startups.

11:52

There's a lot of really interesting approaches to fintech that you see coming out of Africa.

Because the way that they're solving for the problems that they see are totally different than some of the Fintech solutions you see maybe here in Silicon Valley and some of the most prolific investors are getting in on the early stages in global opportunity throughout Africa.

12:14

So one of the things I'm just you know, thrilled that you've specialized in a region and then you've specialized in a niche of we're going to help agency staff.

So I I just think you kind of hit it on the head with building your business.

Talk to me about how you got to where you're at today and what what was really your mindset going into it and and how did it change?

12:35

Because I know you, you've pivoted at at one point and and I think it was a really smart pivot.

Right.

So I I mean there's there's the the way early story but I think in the in the in how I, you know got to Eastern Europe in the 1st place.

But in the context of after I had come back from Eastern Europe, it's kind of I've had myself an interesting career in marketing.

12:55

I I worked for my dad at 1st and you know we're just figuring out funnels and Facebook ads and whatever.

And that was that was just invaluable experience.

I was so you know so lucky that to have that experience And then I went to go work for another company and I had like a 90 day contract to be you know in the senior position and and I quit on day 90.

13:13

It was, it was a terrible situation for a number of reasons.

We don't really need to get into here and so on day 91, I'm like well I need a job.

And so I was like, well, I don't really want a job because, you know, I mean, maybe it's ego, but I thought it was worth this much.

And the offers I was getting were maybe half that.

13:29

So I I got to work starting, you know, this, this agency.

And I was like, OK, well, I need someone to run the Facebook ads.

And so I went out to the marketplace and for a job that can be done completely remote, I just wasn't able to, it didn't make any economic sense for me to hire the media buyer because I needed the media buyer, I needed the funnel designer.

13:51

I needed all these pieces And, you know, by the time you add them all up on AUS payroll, say half $1,000,000 a year, $1,000,000 a year in payroll, and it's like, wow, that's, you know, that's a hell of a startup cost when you're trying to, you know, win the cash flow business.

So I had a friend from from Serbia, actually, that I met on a trip to Hungary and just basically on a whim, I, like, reached out.

14:13

I was like, hey, you don't happen to know anyone who like wants to you know learn marketing because I can teach this stuff, you know.

And turns out her sister had just graduated with a master's degree in marketing was looking for a job.

The price was right and that was higher #1.

14:30

So then I went to, you know, my buddy went lifelong friend Tim.

And I was like, hey man, I think we might have something here.

You know we could get these originally was going to be VA.

So like we'll source these VA's and you know compete just in as a service business.

14:46

And so we, we, we ran that maybe for the first three months of the business, but there were really 2 problems and and we still source VA's, it's definitely not our like our main role, but the two main problems were Serbia is more expensive than the Philippines.

And so our cost to deliver the service by the time we actually like got you know recouped our investment da, da, da, like it just wasn't economically feasible to pay the people like what was a good wage in Serbia.

15:14

We tried to pay double, you know what their other offers are.

And so we were we're kind of hitting our heads against the wall and and I think at that point we started getting more inquiries.

Well, can we get people who do this and people who do this and we started looking there's a lot of kind of false starts here.

15:31

And then we eventually figured out that we can especially if we specialize with agencies, they always need people and they always need kind of this not quite junior but not quite senior talent and they can never find it because people in the United States don't want those jobs.

And and speaking in large, large generalities here, but for people in the States those are stepping stones to their own agency or VP or whatever.

15:54

So their attention is terrible for these agencies and most agencies are are so flat.

There's really just not a lot of career advancement.

And so you know and this is this kind of getting wrong but eventually the pivot became OK let's refocus all of our outreach and all of our marketing to just agencies and let's basically let's capitalize on skilled roles and and that eventually I think we started with project managers because for some, some reason I I still don't know why Serbia has so many project managers and we found like hundreds of them that we're like any one of you could be making $300,000 in the States.

16:31

And so we started that media buyers and and at this stage we can place really any skilled role across industries but particularly we're interested in and have really good systems for helping agencies hire skilled roles particularly you know people who are who have the skill to do the job and that you can maybe find find tweak a little bit.

16:48

So I think long way, I think that's maybe the pivot process that we went through.

I'd love it.

I I think for a few things that that shows me as somebody who built a business that was successful and sold it and I I listened for characteristics.

One of the characteristics I heard was you tried your hand at being an employee and you just didn't fit into the the marketplace.

17:08

There was a a dislocation of of price to talent and it's because they needed you to do a very specific thing when you have the ability to do a lot of things and that's that's usually a sign that somebody should be running their own business.

The second thing is you didn't, you know, cry about it and go, poor me, I just spent 90 days and this didn't work out.

17:30

You said on day 91, I got to figure something out and I made a phone call and I I thought about who was in my network.

People vastly underestimate what they can achieve just by looking at who's around them.

I'm a big believer that God doesn't put people in your life by accident.

17:45

And that if you pay attention to and you stop viewing yourself as separate from what's going on and you see yourself as part of the whole, it's easy to realize oh we're all here here to kind of collaborate for and achieve success together.

And then really the last thing that stands out in that story is you found a really good pain point.

18:04

You realize that agencies are very flat by nature.

They have a lot of churn with the early level, especially that mid levels almost non existent.

The senior level really doesn't want to get their hands dirty, they just want to direct things.

So you found this sweet spot of like how do I feel that?

And I'm only going to sell the one audience.

18:22

I love it because as many people say, the riches are in the niches.

Knowing all of that about yourself, do people ever reach out to you and and like ask you like, hey, I I've got a business idea.

What do you think?

And like, have you become someone in your circle of influence that people look to as a as a role model?

18:40

I don't know I don't know about role model like occasionally you know like I'm in a group at the at the local university here at at BYU and I'm just different entrepreneurs and and I I think sometimes I've been able to provide outlook on on like offering and particularly ways to go to market for people who you know for for really these you know dirt bag bootstrapped entrepreneurs which is what I was you know like you you have like your marketing budget is 0 you know like how do you how do you how do you or maybe like you know 500 bucks.

19:14

And so I I think with some of some of the guys I'm I'm thinking of like we've had really good conversations around you know where did what is their skill set map to maybe a a gap in the marketplace and how can they you know what what what skills or what what what's the pathway for them to get to know the right people to then add value and then eventually convert them because of all the things we tried and we tried everything.

19:38

I think that was the best thing we did.

And it is a particular like kind of skill like which communities to join, you know who to talk to what is you know adding value equate to.

You know like there's so many sub skills in there and I think maybe in that way I've been able to be helpful.

19:56

I hope so at least.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, I know you've been helpful for me.

You've been helpful for one of my clients.

We're actually in, in the selection and onboarding process with one of your candidates.

So it's.

Super exciting.

But I think at a higher level, there's also a greater trend in the marketplace that I'm seeing with agencies in general where it's agencies either have to get very, very specific on what they're going to do.

20:19

Well, they have to get very specific on who their client is or they have to kind of dissolve and go be kind of like a high skilled.

I'm just going to go do this one thing on my own.

In running my agency, one of the biggest challenges I saw is just the dislocation between what small businesses thought they should be paying versus what the effects of their budget was going to lead to, just because of how competitive the space has gotten digitally.

20:49

So one of my bigger transitions, just as a person, how I've pivoted is I've done work to help companies set up their own internal agencies where instead of hiring somebody to do everything, it's bringing somebody like me to be high level direction.

21:07

Let's build out all your processes, let's bring on the right vendors, let's create a team that internally you'll manage or I'll manage for you.

And then from there you get the economy of scale of being able to really ramp up without having to pay for somebody else's overhead and somebody else's profit margin.

21:26

I think that's kind of the model where some of these companies companies are going and then others are just kind of you know working with with you on the other front of just they're going to have somebody like you provide all their talent and then they're going to just do all the front facing.

So I think either way you're in a position to win long term.

21:42

Yeah, well I mean we definitely hope so and it's funny we're kind of on the same wavelength cause and we we haven't talked in a ton since we last talked in between, but I've been on that same wavelength as I'm like analyzing that.

So I it's reassuring actually that you just said that because that was how I was looking at the situation.

22:00

I was like is it.

And as because a lot of what we do especially in the sales call, I mean you've been on on one of our sales calls, it's not really that salesy.

You know like we asked a lot of questions.

We're trying to what we're really trying to do is is figure out like you know is this the right place for them to go.

22:15

Like is this someone we want to work with.

Because we have you know we have two two obligations here obviously to our client, but then we want to make sure the people we hire and are in good hands and obviously with you, you guys and your clients was a great fit.

But yeah, I love, I love in particular that model of like these internal agencies where we bring on someone to do the heavy lifting who has the experience we've seen everything and can then orchestrate the pieces.

22:39

Hey, I need this role player.

I need this role player and that I think I have this belief too and I know everyone on on Twitter whatever disagrees with this but I think A+ talent like a A level talent is completely overrated like and maybe that's just because I read the E myth at like 13.

22:55

Like my dad gave it to me and said he he literally sent me to McDonald's.

He's like go to McDonald's and read this book for your son that like that's your summer that was that was my dad that was super helpful and it's like if your business has to have 10 people each as an expert you're overpaying for that job to get done.

23:10

Whereas Nate, obviously you know you've you've got your fees and and maybe that will look expensive compared to one person.

So if you look at your ability to orchestrate the team and get it to work together with each of those people only needing to be a good role player and trainable and and stuff like that like that is such a better model in in my opinion.

23:30

Then I think what a lot of companies kind of almost get laser focused on which is I need an expert doing this.

I need it.

I need unicorns.

That's the phrase like I need a Unicorn who can do this, this and this for.

Or a rock star.

Everyone's a rock star.

A rock, Yeah.

Everyone's a rock star.

And and and those people exist, but I've never seen one, you know, getting paid 5 bucks an hour stick around long term because they figure out like this what they're worth, you know.

23:53

And so that's yeah, that's that's my thinking about it kind of my my tangent.

Well, and I I think there's a lot of a players who like there's people who will give you slack for being like a generalist or a you know Jack of all trades and shout out to Millie.

24:09

I always forgot how to say your last name.

But the the the head of the generalist world community she's done some incredible things with gathering generalists in one place and creating really cool career opportunities and networking.

But like my wife, for example, she's very clearly an A player and she often comes into in an organization, they need her to do a specific thing.

24:30

She learns to do that specific thing very quickly, and even though she's not as qualified on paper as some of her counterparts, she tends to have experience doing so many other things that she does above and beyond.

And she just finds herself moving up an organization naturally.

24:46

And what I find is that I believe a talent has to do more with mindset, work ethic, adaptability, all the intangibles that say I know how to analyze what I've done over here and I could bring it over here.

25:03

And I might not be on paper as skilled over here as some of these other people, but I can, I can coalesce all my experience and be a much more effective, adaptable person.

And that's what I look for in talent that I would consider top talent.

Not necessarily.

They have all the credentials to just be, you know, a ninja or a rocket, you know, rock star are at one thing.

25:24

You know what I mean?

No, 100 a 100% I I love that and I think like especially we see this with overseas hires and I think one of the one of the bandwagons we've been hitting is like trying to help our clients reframe from like we're going for cheat on to we just want the best person you know for this role.

25:41

But where where that ties in is like you know when people are looking for, they're looking for I think arbitrage which is you know obviously fair and that's a part of what we do.

But the best arbitrages across you know, languages, cultures, countries or whatever is you find someone who's hungry and you give them training and and you throw stuff at them and you give them tough challenges to overcome.

26:03

And they grow into someone who is now not only like exceptionally well, you know trained because they will in some sense train themselves, but also like they're on, they're on fire because now they they have to prove themselves.

They're in the organization that across anything I think is is the arbitrage.

26:23

And it's part of why I tell a lot of people for like, hey, we need this person, this person, this person, this person.

Like OK, we we can get you that person.

But if if truly you're what you're telling me is true that you know culture and mindset is most important.

You're better off with this college kid that I know who's trying to break into the industry, who's hungry enough, like wants to work and will like literally do anything for you.

26:44

Take him on for six months, like give him as much training as you can and just like watch him take off.

That is like that.

Those are my favorite roles to place, personally, actually.

You know, it's funny if that's a lot more what my personal lived experience was like.

You know, I I told you I had dropped out of college.

27:01

I wanted to originally went to school for engineering and business.

I thought I would just work my way up through management at some engineering firm.

But I couldn't stand the coursework and I probably would have blown my brains out if that was my life.

Like no offense to anyone who loves it.

It's just not for me and but what I happened is I dropped out of school and nobody cared about how good I did in high school.

27:21

I started at the bottom doing retail and restaurant work and I was hungry and so when I went back to school I went to Community College.

I eventually got an internship with APR firm and it was unpaid for six months.

Like I did not did not make money there, but I learned a ton.

27:39

I saw somebody who built something out of nothing.

And I I learned also about industries.

It was in music and entertainment.

And I realized, oh, this is a bottom feeder industry.

And not meaning that the people who work in it are bottom feeders, but that money flows down into entertainment.

27:58

So if you are one of the top entertainers, big companies are going to send a lot of money your way.

If you're trying to break into entertainment, we're talking about rubbing together, you know, two nickels, trying to turn it into, you know, $100.

And that's a hard industry to be in.

So when I pivoted out of that to starting my own agency, I created an internship program and I brought on somebody I knew was hungry.

28:21

My sister, she was working somewhere where she was underutilized and she did this six month intern to hire and did the same thing with my mom.

And then I did the same thing with other college kids and and I created opportunities for people and I probably underpaid them, but I over trained them and many of them went on to have really great careers.

28:41

And if I'm proud of one thing, it's that I gave people that opportunity to to transcend into something where there was a lack of organization that was going to give them that.

And it sounds like you've done a great job doing that just globally.

Yeah, I I think we same ethos.

28:58

I mean your story told me.

I mean that's that's the definition of a rising tide lifts all the boats.

And I, you know, like not to get too philosophical, like we're in business to make a buck here, right.

Like we, we want to make some money.

But in terms of like ethos that I would want represented out from our company back you know into Eastern Europe, it's it's that same ethos we we talked about at the beginning like you know America is this place of opportunity.

29:20

We're here to give hungry people, you know, the opportunity to rise.

And and that is, like I said before, like it's it's the most for you.

You know, your family interned a higher role for us, you know, globally throughout Eastern Europe.

It's like that's by far the most satisfying part of the job.

29:36

It doesn't always work out, but if it works out, you know, nine times out of 10, I mean there's your, there's your rock star.

I mean you want to talk about, you know, some bogus thread on Twitter about how an A+ player does 100 times more than your B players or whatever.

Like that's where they are.

You know they're they're not in the typical job application process.

29:54

I I don't think personally I haven't seen a lot that that haven't.

And the other the other reality that we're balancing is like not every role needs a rock star, like a lot of project management roles.

You just need a good project management like what is it?

What even is a good a rock star project manager if they do the job completely well at all.

30:11

Your projects get done like what?

You want them to sing you a song like like what exactly is, you know, you know what I'm saying?

Like get get trying to get across here.

Like, there's almost like a dichotomy here.

Yeah.

Well, I think there's there's a a dislocation of expectations people when when I think I hear those adjectives or superlatives, it's usually they want somebody who they don't actually have to train properly or or create processes or standards around in their home.

30:37

And I know this because it's been my experience.

Like the thing I resisted the most was adding structure and procedure to how I did things, because everything was up here and I just wanted you to get it and pick it up from watching.

And that's that's not how you build a business.

And I had to change that as I grew.

So many of these organizations, if they had the right structure, if they had the right process, had knowledge libraries, if they had A guides SOP things our friend Jordan helps people with.

31:02

Those are the things that enable growth and scale And then you bring in somebody who has A plus characteristics but maybe is C talent and that C talent follows the playbook really well.

But they have an A mentality like that's there's a are you a basketball fan at all?

31:22

Yeah.

So I obviously I got Kobe Bryant on my wall right above me.

He's my favorite player of all time and he's the he is the true Unicorn.

He is the Mamba in that he, if you look at like Gilbert Arenas actually once did a great Instagram post on Kobe.

He looked at Kobe's physical abilities and compared them to Michael Jordan.

31:41

And Kobe was maybe 3/4 the man Michael was, but if you look, and I'm using like The Vertical Leap as a specific example, but if you look at how he modeled his game after the greatest that had ever been up to that point, and he maybe was an inferior talent who had a superior work ethic, he rose to be in that level of conversation.

32:01

There's guys who've come out of high school or college into the league that have all the talent in the world, but they don't have the ethic and the drive and that's why they never make it to that echelon.

I'm always a believer that as long as you have the the raw foundation of talent, but you have the mindset.

32:16

Mindset is what's everything. 100%, Yeah, I love that.

I love that example.

I mean, like, yeah, like, you know, for some, for some more technical roles, maybe we, you know, maybe they just have to have ABC, right?

You know, Maybe design, for instance, right?

Like, like I'm, I'm about as hungry as you can be.

32:34

You put me in a design role, like I will try my best, but there's no natural talent here, you know, Like we just can't go from zero to one with me.

That said, like, I'll get better, but I'm never going to be at, you know, and it's not worth anyone's time really for for me to be in that role.

32:49

But you can definitely get some designers who have good portfolios who may be a little bit more unproven like find the ones that are you know are demonstrating great work ethic.

And and I I like what what you said I think and and you would know better than I think 99% of agency owners because you've gone through that whole process of of you know starting growing building selling.

33:12

And I think I I think almost because as entrepreneurs we resist structure.

We resist, you know, protocols.

We, you know, resist that, didn't like it, didn't like the boss, whatever.

And my experience working with, you know, employees has been that most people are not that way.

33:31

Most people want to do a good job.

They want clear protocols and they want clear definitions of success and failures.

Entrepreneurs, they're constantly redefining success and failure relative to the information available to us.

I don't think most people want that.

And that's not like a bad thing.

Like there's no reason to trash people for that.

33:47

They want a good life and you can't really fault them for that.

And you know, entrepreneurship is a is a different game in and of itself.

Well, one of the things that comes to mind, you talk about a different game is like the difference between people who play checkers and chess, and then the difference between people who play like chess and poker.

34:04

I was reading an article about it where they're basically saying like chess is a game where there's a finite number of moves, finite number of outcomes, and if you study the game really well, you can pretty logically work your way to becoming a chess master.

34:21

Whereas with poker, the variables are constantly changing.

And so with chess, everything is a known variable.

With poker, you have known and unknown variables, and then you have the the wild card of, like you could be playing with a a beginner who's so poorly poorly educated and poorly skilled that they don't even know they're playing really stupid and then they win lucky hands.

34:45

And then to the person who knows, oh, you should have been in this hand, but you were and now you and it gets their emotions off.

So I think entrepreneurship is a lot like playing poker.

Yeah, I it's funny to say that because I I, I don't hate chess.

I just can never muster like I I have.

35:02

It's not as stimulating to me as like a game that's constantly evolving like like poker, you know, I think poker is, I'm terrible at poker as well.

So maybe this isn't the best, but I just think it's so interesting because you can you can learn the basics and maybe that's that, you know, zero to 1.

But after that, it's like there's a whole ton of constantly evolving.

35:21

I guess I have variables.

And I think most people, I mean, we can't draw a comparison.

Maybe most people prefer chess over poker or whatever.

But I do think most people, like, want the rules of the game.

They want to play the game.

They want to like they want to exit the game.

And you know, there's, you talk about, you know, misalignments in all areas of business, in life.

35:39

And I think that's, I think that's one that maybe a lot of newer or smaller entrepreneurs make the mistake of, especially if their first hires are kind of entrepreneurial.

Is is mistaking everyone you know being into the same thing for one of the same things out of the experiences they do.

35:55

One thing I'll hear people say all the time is I just want to find people who care as much about this business as I do.

And I have to tell people no one will ever care about your business as much as you, and they really shouldn't.

Like, if you find that person, they're doing something wrong with their life because, like the business, if you've built it properly, is designed to create an outcome for you, whether it's the exit in mind or it's just building in proper profitability along the way.

36:20

But you're supposed to find people who care about their reputation and the work they do and the quality associated with their name.

But no one's going to care about your business as much as you.

The other thing I think a lot of business owners don't realize is no business is ever going to love them back.

36:37

So it's it's this this thing to know about, like how much do I give of myself to the business?

You mentioned like people want to play games where they can walk away.

As a business owner, I've spent so many nights where I just couldn't sleep because there was something I couldn't disconnect from.

36:53

And that was ultimately the thing that eventually got me to prepare to sell my business and move on, is that the juice just wasn't worth the squeeze anymore.

There was this, this this place where I said hey, this isn't where I want to scale forever.

This isn't the thing that I'm married to anymore.

37:10

And I want some space in my life to just be able to kind of disconnect and and turn the game off.

I was in a in a rough space and personal life and and my parents had just gotten divorced and there's just a lot of things up in the air and and I realized I'd given so many of my years to this business but I was sorely lacking in my personal life.

37:32

And I I made a commitment to change and to balance and I ended up reconnecting with a a woman I went to school with who you know has since become my wife.

I've built a ton of balance and a big part of my practice now is helping business owners create the life that they set out for when they built their business.

37:50

Getting in alignment with their dreams and values.

For you as a young guy, you know what what's creating balance been like for you and and what are some of the things that are meaningful to you outside of work?

Yeah, I mean, First off, I mean you you have the receipts to prove it.

38:05

So you're well qualified I think to help other people through that that process.

For me personally I mean it was really bad in the beginning you know just working and and the thing I think with a lot of entrepreneurs, especially when you have kind of your back against the wall like you have the superhuman ability to work like like 18 hour days, 20 hour days for like weeks.

38:27

And you can just go and go and go and go and go and go and go and go.

And I I think I think there's definitely times when that is called for.

I don't know I I I wouldn't be able to tell you like you know and and no one really should be taking advice from me on this.

38:43

So I wouldn't be able to tell you anyway.

I know should you want to know but like where that you know line is.

But definitely I think, I think it was about, you know it was like it was like early this year I think or maybe even last year like I stopped caring as much which like is like Oh my, you know my baby or whatever.

39:01

And this was with my other agency gokor pay things kind of been the the nice peaceful thing that just kind of slowly grows.

But the agency itself with the Facebook ads and crowded niche you know was was very stressful.

We had you know all kinds of things we had we had a huge we signed this deal with this huge company and they refused to pay us and then you know they're still using our work.

39:22

And then we over hired, then we under hired and like all these learning curves that we were, we were going through and eventually I just kind of stepped back and I was like you know, no, like they'll be fine.

You know set better boundaries with clients fired clients and I think we got I personally think got a lot better at caring less about the outcome because it wasn't that important in the grand scheme of things.

39:49

Like the client is not going to remember that we didn't answer their question within three hours.

Right.

Like like we're going to do good work.

We're going to do what we say we're going to do and everyone's going to be fine because we're we're not a big you know we weren't a big agency.

And so yeah I think I think that that has been very helpful as well as setting and and and this is a this is a benefit I I couldn't have done this one go Karpathian or if my agency was starting out but I I try to stick to work hours you know I start you know.

40:18

Seven or eight.

I work till, you know, four or five.

If I have stuff in the middle, cool.

But those are my hours.

And then after those hours, if you e-mail me, you know, too bad.

Like if if it's like a critical emergency, sure, we'll make some exceptions, but almost nothing's a critical emergency.

Almost nothing's as urgent as it is.

40:34

So, you know, outside of that, you know, friends, devout Christians, that's all very important to me and you know, Jim Rat as well.

So I think those things are outside of work what I'm what I'm into at the moment.

Awesome, I know.

So you said something.

You said devout Christians I know you want.

40:50

Your mentioned being in this entrepreneurship group at BYU.

You had told me a little bit of your story about how you would even got into Hungary in the 1st place.

But this was one of the things I wanted to kind of jam on.

I'd love to learn more about the role faith has played in your life, both, like, you know, through the sense of the direct role it's played, but also the indirect, like the things that it's led to.

41:13

And then, you know, learn more about what you've studied on, because there's some things that kind of wanted to jam on around that.

Sure.

So yeah, I mean, my parents are, and and myself, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, 99% of people will know us by the marketing campaign we ran in the early 2000s, which was the Mormons.

41:34

And so if you hear Mormons or Latter Day Saints, that's all the same thing.

We're a sect of non Trinitarian Christians, which causes us, as, if you know anything about the Christian world, all kinds of of lovely, pointless, sometimes debates.

I don't and I don't know much about like what?

41:50

What does that term even mean?

Sure.

So, so and and you know I didn't mean to be too careless in in how I said that but there's a big debate in Christianity.

So so so Trinitarian is is the Trinity and so you're Catholics.

You're orthodox, most of your problems, Most Christians are what we call Trinitarian Christians which they believe that God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are all one, they are all God.

42:18

Whereas in non Trinitarian Christianity which encompasses I believe my own church, the Mormons and I think the 7th Day Adventist.

So they don't quote me on that and a couple other I think newer sex believe in non Trinitarian Christianity which is that instead of being one individual or one being God the Father is one person one entity Jesus is another and the Holy Spirit is another.

42:44

So they're they're three separate entities and that split and and it is very important in the theological systems that they come from.

But the way I look at it, someone who believes in in Jesus and attempts to follow his teachings is in fact a Christian and and baptism I think as well is an important part of that And I think based on those criteria is that Mormons meet that criteria.

43:07

But there's, you know, if you have any listeners who are into the debate, I'm sure you'll still pop up in the comments, but that that's my take on it.

So we're we're non Trinitarian Christians.

OK, yeah.

And I see I come from a background of being culturally Jewish and semi practicing but never really like go deep into the minutiae of like what makes different sects even within my own religion super different.

43:32

Sometimes it's hard to tell like what's the difference between Orthodox and traditional and conservative and like the names all sound like they would be the same thing and they're they're all, they're all very different.

And I like I personally seek counsel from a rabbi who's from the Habad group, which is a sect of Orthodox Jews.

43:52

And then I live in a very non Orthodox way.

So it's kind of like, you know, why do you, why do you talk to this guy who lives his life completely different than yours, but the kind of what you talked about, the spirit of, you know, a person who's trying to live their life following the teachings of Jesus Christ.

44:09

In this case, it was, I found a rabbi who taught me to listen to what was going on inside and follow that poll.

Prime example, I'm married to my wife who is born to people who could be considered Christians.

She certainly wasn't born Jewish.

And normally you would think an Orthodox rabbi would say, like, hey, you're a Jew, you need to go marry a Jew.

44:30

He just said when you're quiet and you listen to that pull on your heart, does it pull you towards her?

I said yeah it does.

And he says then you should be with her.

And it was.

It cemented our relationship because he cared more about me than he cared about the rules.

And at the same time, I respect him where I didn't ask him to marry us because I know that's outside of, you know, how he actually lives his religion.

44:51

But I I think in the same vein with you, I love how you can parse the church you're a part of and maybe what you fall under or don't fall under from.

What I think is really like the simple goal of Christianity is to get people to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Yeah, yeah, that it's a it's an interesting And so I and I approach this from my technical sense.

45:14

I study philosophy.

It's my my undergraduate degree.

I took a very long absence but I'm finishing up this April, so I'm very happy about that.

But there's there's such AI think our world was totally unprepared for the clashing of cultures that that happened.

45:32

I mean, really all the way back in, you know, the 1500s.

I mean there's always, you know, Jews, Muslims and Christians.

We've always been, you know, interacting with each other, sometimes fighting with each other for, you know, thousands of years at this point.

But all three are Abrahamic, right?

Like at the heart of it.

They all, you know, descend from those ancient teachings, you know.

45:51

And so that there's like, there's there's a lot more common ground there than what we've exploded into in the modern world, which is even among, you know, the big religions, just a multiplicity of sex.

And so and, you know, a common person who's just trying to, you know, live the good life is not going to have time to understand it.

46:12

I think everyone should attempt to like it is it adds a flavor almost like.

And there's a lot of wisdom to be gained when you know how what you were born into connects to the other things next to you.

And then that in turn orients you I think to understanding you know the the rest of the world.

46:31

I mean we we actually, you know one of my my good friends and it's actually the friend that introduced me to the Serbian friend that go Karpathian got started with She's you know she's she's an Orthodox Jew.

I guess technically she's not really supposed to be talking to us and our friends right.

46:47

But we've learned so.

I I've learned personally so much about just Judaism in general that I, I especially modern Judaism that I didn't and that intern has added a rich flavor to my own life.

I mean when we were you know she didn't follow every rule but she was she was very devout and we're just very unapologetically like be herself and like she had these rules that she was going to hold herself to and she believed that those right and she's going to do it and she's not really going to apologize to me for doing that.

47:15

And I found personally you know and Christians in the West.

I mean, you know, I I guess we're still repenting of past wrongs.

But sometimes it's it's it's almost so uncool to just like authentically be a Christian that I think we come on, I think that's repulsive to people.

47:32

Like I think people respect people who are authentically themselves, you know, and if you're authentically Jewish, you know, go do that.

If you're authentically, you know, Christian, go do that, you know.

And that is much more respectable to me than someone's like, ah, you know, I'm so sorry that you know this, that or the other thing.

And if you if you catch my drift here.

47:48

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

And so a lot of, like a lot of how I've approached religion has been from the understanding of what can I take from the teaching and integrate into my life.

Does it fit?

And if not, like I'll just kind of leave it.

And so sometimes that's led to non denominational spiritual texts.

48:08

I read it was, I'm reading this text right now called Letting Go.

And one of the things that talks about is different energetic levels associated with different mindsets.

And in the level associated with pride, it talks about how people who are out in the world acting a certain way because it's what they believe to be right as opposed to what works for them.

48:30

They're never going to reach the level of enlightenment and peace and love that is available to them through their belief set because they're only doing it through this fixed lens of being right and it makes everybody else wrong.

And it creates this, this clash and this conflict, whereas the person who goes this is what I do because it's what I'm connected to and it's what brings me joy and love and fulfilment.

48:52

Like there's you can't argue with them because they're not saying this is what you need to do or this is it's so it's it's from a lot what I think is like just a much purer place.

And it's why I really enjoy talking to people who come from a different background than myself.

I actually find I have a lot more in common with how I think and feel with parts of Hinduism and Buddhism than I do with a lot of parts of Judaism.

49:18

One of my best friends who's super Jewish is like what I would say super Jewish.

You know, some people would look at me as super Jewish in comparison.

But he he says, yeah, like to be a really effective Jew is almost like to be a lawyer.

You know, no jokes intended there.

49:33

But like Judaism is a book of laws, and if you've really studied the laws, you're a lawyer of a religion.

And and I feel like I'm just not that way in my life.

I don't want to study rules.

I don't want to read commentary on why the rules were created and other people's interpretations of the rules.

49:51

So it's it's not something I practice yet I'm super passionate about there being a place in the world for Jews and for people who want to follow that path, because I believe everyone should have a path forward as long as you're not harming others.

Yeah I think that's I I think that's a good way to go about it.

50:11

I mean I think so often with like that that mindset of right, like I there's there's again everything I think is in in dichotomy.

It's almost like I mean Taoism has a great, has a great, you know spin on this.

There's always the yin and the Yang and the opposites that are true here is like I think I should articulate this like like for instance there are things that we're going to disagree on spiritually, religiously, whatever.

50:39

It is so much easier to have an authentic, meaningful conversation if neither of us is afraid to say, you know, maybe not.

I think you're wrong, but I disagree with you.

You know, like that is so much a better place than each of us trying to have this conversation while trying to say the thing that the other person might disagree with in the way that is you know, for them least likely to flag, is disagreeable.

50:59

You know, to be palatable instead of being, you know, just authentic.

Right.

Right And and that I don't know exactly on a on a global scale how we do it but I've definitely been in groups with people with strong opinions about spirituality or or non spirituality and I think ultimately just came down to you know just like this respect like I I have respect for you outside of you know our our disagreements here you can have space you know to go live your life within you know certain societal bound posts.

51:27

I have space to go live my life.

I'm not going to force you you know to to try to come over and and do my thing You're not going to force me to do whatever and in turn like sure there's maybe a tension but it's really just like a bridge between the two of us.

But I, I I believe you know the one thing and the other thing and you believe the other thing.

51:44

I think that's that's one very important element.

And the other is like, you know, obviously, like I said, I'm a devout Christian.

Like, I, I, I.

But even in Christianity there's this idea like if you're following the rule, just to follow the rule and you haven't like, found that love for Jesus that come that maybe not compels you but but but pulls you in towards that rule, you're not really living the rule.

52:07

You know, like if it's not coming from an authentic expression of like you know, Jesus is is my friend.

That's why I'm doing what he's telling me is the right path.

That's a totally different you know paradigm than like you know I must do the rules because these rules are right and you are wrong.

52:22

You know even if even if I still disagree with you know other things it's like that's I I feel like that that starting point that that logos almost is is it makes all the difference.

Yeah.

Well, and I think like one of the the perfect examples is like, do you view God as a punishing God or as a loving God?

52:40

Do you view God as being there because God made you in in his image and cares about you and loves you versus like, you know, are you kind of like a a bastard to God?

And like, you know, you're just trying not to step on glass and cause problems for God.

52:56

And like, I think that has more to say about how a person views the existence of of the world and just the nature of life than it does about what's right or wrong.

Like to me, what has worked for me has been finding ways of being in the world where I'm feeling more love and I'm giving more love.

53:18

And it when I what I feel in this connection to God of my understanding it's do the actions I take, do they bring me closer to God?

Did they?

Do I draw myself more near to God?

Or am I farther from God?

Am I asking God to direct my thinking and run the show?

53:34

And is God my architect?

And am I by the builder?

Like, what's, what's the relationship like?

And I've long since stopped trying to explain God to anybody because, you know, I just know what I feel.

But it it turns into this, this way of life that becomes naturally attractive.

53:51

And I just feel pulled into the stream, kind of like, you know, Jesus being a friend to you.

That I think is the people who I see having a life that I want tend to have that sort of relationship with God where it's not do these things or God will punish you.

54:07

Does that make sense?

Yeah, yeah.

Like there's there's a, there's a a pulling there's a you're almost like drawn to something for a for a higher cause than than simple punishment.

I mean like I I think God will do what he says He does and and some of that is punishment and sure but and sometimes I personally like maybe not to motivate myself but in my own life as I just think about my relationship with bad habits or whatever.

54:29

It's like I do need negative consequences or I will never change.

You know like no matter how much I want to go to the gym like if I did not get fat if I didn't go to the gym I would go to the gym less.

You know like the endorphins whatever.

Like it's like no, I I don't want to be you know I I have a maybe a standard and and maybe that doesn't fit with everyone's conception of love but at least the way I I see love and and received it from my parents have gotten is like it's so much more holistic than like I will never say mean thing to you.

54:56

I love the the conception of love thing you just said because like to me, one of my conceptions of love, my wife, she likes the 600 LB life show and everyone.

Then she'll say like you know what would you do if this and I'm like babe, I would never let you get that big and it's because I love you.

And it's not that I don't love people that big, but there's very clearly some sort of unhealthiness.

55:16

And if you watch the episodes, there's always a a mental health issue and emotional.

Somebody was molested.

There's something going on inside where it's manifesting outward.

So our joke is like babe, I'd chained you to a radiator at 2:40 like and you know some people hear that and they go, but like love has consequences because love also there's there is the standard for me a lot of what it's like, do I, how do I feel after I do this or behave this way or consume this content or speak a certain way or how am I viewing someone?

55:47

And like I never like, I don't.

I don't get into the abstraction of is there a heaven like afterlife or hell Afterlife because it's it's just not really the same conceptually within my religion or just kind of how I feel after I've observed a lot of religions and viewpoints.

56:05

But I'm very much a believer that in what Jesus was saying in Sermon on the Mount was much more a metaphysical reality, and that hell exists here on earth, and there's many people living in hell while they walk and breathe.

And at the same point, God's heaven is to be found here and now, and if you just simply let it in, you can experience it.

56:24

And that to me has been my guiding force for am I living in a hell or a heaven today?

That's that's much more what gets me to follow whatever my path towards God is.

And if there is that afterlife like that, really cool.

And if not, you know.

56:41

Cool bonus, yeah.

Have you seen the the show on Amazon Prime Upload?

I don't.

I've I've heard of it.

I don't think I actually watched it.

As a philosophy guy, you might really like it, because I'm not.

I won't ruin the show in any context, But one of like the central plots is that we're maybe in the near future like 1015 years from now and before people die they have the opportunity to upload their consciousness to the cloud and there's different forms of heaven that you could go to.

57:12

And what I think is fascinating is on the show there's some people who don't want to be uploaded because they have faith that there is a real heaven, a non digital heaven, and that their their loved ones are waiting for them there.

And then there's the other people who they need to go to the uploaded heaven because they want to still and like they're still living life as if they were alive.

57:31

They're just in in this digital heaven and things are kind of off.

And so it's, I think it just might be an interesting trip to just kind of enjoy that show.

Yeah, I might.

I'll have to get into that.

It's, it's, it's a bizarre they say, they say for years and I was going to my history class.

57:48

They're like, oh, you know, people who are living history don't recognize they're going through history.

And after like the last five years, I'm like, I'm not so sure that that's true because, you know, I don't know about, you know, all the mechanisms of the upload or whatever.

But you know we've got an FDA you know at least preliminarily approved device that goes in your brain and you know causes paralyzed people.

58:07

Like we're living in the future for lack of a a more you know technical term like this is this isn't something that's as far fetched maybe as you know 1950s, you know, blah blah blah like that, that we're living through just such a historic time.

58:24

I'll take it off.

It's on prime, right?

Yeah, yeah, it's on prime.

But I think you you brought up something interesting that, you know, people don't realize they're going through history.

I think a lot of times people who are aware of of context and progression become more aware of the moment that they're in.

58:42

Like when I think about the moment we're in right now around accepting differences.

We've we've made something so in your face about different types of differences that people have become extremely repelled or repulsed where the we've had a polarity at an all time high in many ways.

59:03

But I also think some of that's because we're more connected in in each other's face than ever through things like social media through live streaming through travel being accessible like it's more I know more types of people of of different ways we could be classified and sub categorized then I think my ancestors knew a generation before and two generations before and definitely 10 generations before.

59:27

So as I I think we're exposed to more some things just get kind of amplified and and but I think my point and all that is that I think history from you know is is progressing rapidly and I don't know what that means for the for the survival of our species if that makes sense like I don't know is that a is that a thing that you ever contemplate as a philosophy guy.

59:49

That's that's slightly outside of of my let's say my professional philosophical range.

But you know, as a human being, I, I think about it one one thing I think in particular that worries I I probably think about this every day and it's it's extremely worrisome is.

1:00:07

You know, in American politics, left and right, there's two growing groups of people that hate America, not just like the people in America or like they hate the common basis that held us together.

And it's not, it's not just a left wing thing.

It's not a right wing thing.

It's like there are people who have decided that this amazing experiment that we're living through is irredeemable.

1:00:30

And as we talk about, you know, I mean America, you know, we might not take the cake for the most diverse country ever, but it's incredibly diverse, incredibly democratic, all things considered.

And we have to have a common set of value.

We have to have a common story, a common myth that goes together and there's so many to choose from.

1:00:50

I mean like you know you can choose so many different points in history where Americans as a people irrespective of you know, race, religion, gender, whatever came together in pursuit of this common goal And we're successful against sometimes incredible odds.

1:01:07

And As for the, you know the survival of of our of our species, I don't know if I thought that big, but it certainly is the survival of of this country.

It's like I think the most important thing you know all of us can do is is figure out how to almost like repurchase that that common ethos with each other.

1:01:25

You know like and it's not it's not left wing, it's not right wing.

It's like we need a common story.

We need to reach back into what made America you know this place how it how it was able to get better over time.

What were those elements and and just I think really I think as Americans we can we can make a common identity.

1:01:44

I don't think it'll be easy, but I think that's the the path forward.

And I I think America is the best place to start in terms of like, I mean like we're like it's not we're not a true nation state.

And like from the beginning there's like people from all over, you know Europe different tribes were ever coming together and making something out of out of this place.

1:02:02

And I think that I have so much hope that that can propel us through and that that can, you know, that message resounds with other people throughout the world and so far as they want to partake as well.

But I think what makes America unique is the value proposition.

America to me was a a bastion of freedom.

1:02:21

It was an economic decision.

It was a sure also a religious decision and also a safety decision for many people.

And getting back to what are the values that unite us as opposed to the opinions that divide us.

1:02:38

I think that one of the concepts I've loosely taken from Christianity is this idea of original sin, in that every downfall of some society has to do with the what's that society's original sin?

And in America, one of our original sins was a transition from a system that viewed people as just means for production, as opposed to people who had complete and entire lives in their lives had meaning and manner.

1:03:10

So like, specifically that translates to slavery and that America was not unique in in having slaves as part of the economic system.

A third of all of Rome was slaves at the height of their empire.

What was unique to America was the way we racialized it and it became a race based slavery system.

1:03:30

And even though there's been changes along the way to make reconciliation with that history, I think this country's just done a really poor job at reconciling.

And that lack of reconciliation is why we have a lot of fragmentation.

When I look at, like how Germany has tried to reconcile with the Holocaust, like I still have my own personal opinions about Germany and I It's not on my list of places I want to go, but that's my own personal decision.

1:03:58

But I don't hold any beef with Germany at scale because Germany paid reparations.

I had a German Holocaust lit teacher who came to America and he like he was so contrite, like it was built into society.

And you can tell like one of his ways of just shifting the narrative for his people was was teaching that very subject and it mattered to him.

1:04:20

You can tell.

And so I just, I don't think that that spirit has ever permeated certain sub pockets of our culture.

There are still so many people who go like you should get over slavery.

That was 150 years ago.

Yet they don't see how.

1:04:36

There's still so many systems shaped by it that their clinging, their pride around, the thing that refuses them to acknowledge that sin and properly handle it, is what's led to the pride on the other side of so much.

1:04:51

Hey, this is, there's so many issues that, you know, we're only going to focus on these issues.

We can't find this common ground.

And I think there's other original sins that have polarized people that that lack of united around like, hey, we're going to move forward around this, how can we do it effectively?

1:05:09

I just don't think it's been done at scale in this country.

Yeah I think, I think that's true and you know I I don't have a you know it's way above my pay grade what what the solution is here.

I I will echo something I heard on a podcast I think a couple years ago which is and and I think a lot of that has to do with politics like like we had the opportunity post civil War.

1:05:31

We had the opportunity post you know the the big civil rights movement you know the 60s and 70s to redefine to to add something to the founding story of America.

Because America in in broad story says this wonderful founding story of of we brought people from different religions and and backgrounds together.

1:05:48

And you know there was let's say that original sin of of having in order to form the nation having to write in you know slavery into the Constitution.

You know, like otherwise nation doesn't exist.

Right.

That is like definitionally an original sin.

You know by by conception it was it was birthed in this.

1:06:06

And then you know there's there's stories I think and and I think until we figure out that story this is where I'm going with this.

Until we figure out what that story is going to be.

I don't I I just don't think we'll see a lot of progress because you see both sides of the aisle that hate America coming at especially this issue and like one side, you know, I mean they're all, they're both doing the same thing ultimately they want to pretend that you know they're overreaction or under reaction are going to fix the problem.

1:06:36

You know, either we can ignore it or we need to burn the whole thing down.

And either I mean the same outcome either way.

But I mean there's so many good stories.

I mean you look at I'm going to get this from I think it was the 42nd brigade.

It was an all black brigade.

It was a white.

I don't even think it was a brigade now it was the commander was white.

1:06:55

I'm telling him breaststrokes.

I've totally forgotten the details.

Several famous movies about it.

I think Glory is one of the movies.

Well, yeah, I think Glory, Yeah, Glory is one of Glory is just a powerful film and and what is cool about that story is right.

Like, he's with as many sleeping with his men, you know, just like totally bucking, you know, the racial attitudes even that were prevalent in the Union at the time.

1:07:17

And after he's killed in battle, they like take him and re bury him with the whites and his family throws a fit and like like don't disrespect him like that.

Like like put him back, you know.

And I think that those stories we we can, they exist like real people live these stores.

We can latch onto those.

1:07:33

Add those back into the American story of like of of how we view ourselves.

Like, hey, we tried, we tried here, we're trying here.

We're still going to try.

We're going to unite ourselves, focus on the positives or not even focus on the positives.

We're going to focus on what unites us and work together to to bring to pass this this thing and you know you mentioned Germany Germany has that contrition also have a lot of downsides from that where like Germans are are like you cannot fly a German flag you can't you know they like the price they paid for.

1:08:04

You know, I don't want, I don't want to be ranking atrocities here but the price they're paying in some ways might be too much that that that anything that was good will be eradicated and and I think it's you know if that's something to consider.

I don't have the answers but until we get that story you know we get our act together our story is a common people like what is the path forward from this.

1:08:24

I don't think any physical solution will take root.

Well, and you also said a lot us, our common story and I think ultimately everybody's source anywhere and this is a generalization of this ease and dissatisfaction in the world is they're stuck in self like little S self and they're busy seeing me and what I'm trying to do.

1:08:53

But they don't see themselves as part of a bigger us.

And in a spiritual sense, there they believe that their existence is purely separate.

Like one of the things that I loved about Hinduism from my my rough education is this idea of the idea of this, this larger mind then the idea of also the interconnectedness.

1:09:18

A lot of people think they're a polytheistic religion.

No, they're a monotheistic religion.

And that has Poly expression.

God is the universe is like my my core spiritual beliefs is that there's no separation between you and I.

There's when I'm stuck in being Nate Rubin and I forget that I'm also God's consciousness manifest on earth.

1:09:41

Having a human experience that is to teach God something, and he's just using us to teach him his lessons.

Like that's what one of, I think the think the world is about.

So when you look at America and you go, we have factions of people who think it's US versus them when they don't see us all as us.

1:09:59

That's the thing that causes this ease.

There's whenever you you see a group of people who just were unfamiliar and they become familiar, whether it's through trauma or through common shared experience, they become US.

It's like what the movies about the aliens are all about.

1:10:17

Like when the aliens come, we all get together, The heads of state come from, and they're like what we can do about these aliens.

And as soon as the aliens leave, they're back to fighting with each other.

And that's that's the same thing with America is like I I just wish that more of our leaders existed to inspire us collectively.

1:10:36

And it wasn't this marketing game to single out who's the target demo, who's going to vote for me and how can I encourage them to be the most disgusting version of themselves so I get what I want.

Like that's that's what I see is wrong with politics.

It's like a really negative sum game marketing tool.

1:10:52

Yep.

And and you and I are both marketers like what's the oldest trick in the book to build any kind of momentum around your product Have someone to throw stones at like it's it's not it's almost a silly how like base it is you know like how how how we're unable to kind of appeal to you know our our better selves right.

1:11:15

I think, I think that's you know James Madison's word wing saw the constitution.

You know like you know we hope that they, you know they're going to appeal to their, their better selves here And that's yeah, I I think, I think I I like what you said you know about about Hinduism about about the US about that were in this together like like we're brothers.

1:11:36

We share a brotherhood not only you know with the whole world in a a loose sense but particularly you know we're bound by you know, by culture, by heritage, by blood.

There have been so many people who died for all of the wonderful things we can and can have in America and the opportunities and like I said, irrespective of who they were, you know, they're, they're black, white, you know, brown, yellow.

1:12:00

You know, they were gay.

They were straight.

They were like everyone has come together to defend this country and it's, it's, I don't know where it started.

I definitely think a lot of it started breaking down in Vietnam as I think and you know a lot of it's the government's on fault.

1:12:16

I mean for for losing the trust of of the American people.

But in some sense, like, I almost think it's going to take us like, you know, pushing the government out of the way, like this grassroots movement that starts, you know, you know, in in your, in your family, you know, ignoring the Enlightenment.

1:12:34

You know, maybe we don't have a better way to structure society politically than around the individual.

But really like you are part of your family, like that is the smallest unit of society.

Start with them.

Make that good.

Move on to your neighbors, move, move on to this community.

And don't wait for, you know, these politicians who will never have, you know, the best interest of of America at heart.

1:12:53

That that spirit, that camaraderie that you know, that that common mythic that binds us all together.

They don't want us to realize that that we're brothers, that we are the same, right.

They want to divide us.

They want us to throw sticks at each other when what we should be doing is you know as much as we can making our local communities better.

1:13:13

Inviting others into the fold because especially internationally because we have the best.

I I'm an unapologetic American.

I mean we have the best thing that's out there and I've I've traveled all over the world and I would love for people to come in and and come and and learn about our thing.

Teach us things too I mean please give us some public transport like but that that melting pot of America is just so powerful.

1:13:34

And I hope, I I really do hope that there is a way and you know someone smarter than maybe you or me can can figure out how to get a get that moving, you know in inside of of each American.

Yeah, I I love that.

I love the way you think about a lot and I find it fitting that how we started the conversation talking about your your approach to a global workforce and now we're kind of wrapping up talking about you know the the common brotherhood of of just mankind and and being humans.

1:14:02

I think that there's there's something unique about you that allowed you to create the business you did.

One question and I, I know we're kind of coming up on time here, but one question that I like to ask everybody who's a guest is, if this show were able to reach, you know, the ideal person who could connect you, who's somebody that you want to meet in life that you haven't met yet and and why?

1:14:24

Why would you want to meet them?

Oh, that's a good question.

That's, that's a good one.

Let me think about it.

Am I like, having dinner with him or just like, do I just see him or what?

Is any any content?

1:14:39

Let's just say, you know, someone's listening to, oh, I know that person.

I'll put you guys in touch.

That's a good question of me.

There's there's a couple people I'd like to like ask a question or two and then be like I I'd be good like.

1:14:57

But I I think I think the most recent and and I have to forgive me as a Polish last name.

I can't pronounce his last name but I I listen to a 5 hour podcast with him.

He's a Polish immigrant to the United States.

1:15:14

He was locked up under communism and became a Navy SEAL.

He just has this crazy story about coming to America.

His name is Drago Dazirian I think.

I can't remember his last name but he goes by Drago.

If I could meet him and just like sit down, I think we would have a great jam sesh about America because he just loves America so much and he's done more than 99 point, you know, 99% of people for this country.

1:15:37

And he has such a unique perspective of like, you know, like, you know, I was new here, you guys, you know, took me in and now you know, he's kind of helping to spread that not just positively, positively.

So it's such a trite word for what's happening here, but just like that that message, that ethos of America.

1:15:54

So I'd love to take him to lunch and just like, you know, asking questions more about his story.

Cool.

Well, hopefully we can make that happen.

One of my long term, like, how am I going to get this show to more people is to finally start embracing short clips.

And when I hire my person to help me do that, which maybe you and I should be talking about after this, I think that we'll make sure to clip that for sure.

1:16:18

Any Any kind of final thoughts, Nathan, before we wrap up?

What?

What else would you like people to either know about you or what you're trying to do in the world?

I I I don't know man.

I think I think we did a a decent job in in the short time we had together.

I mean I think I think they should know more about you if they if they don't I mean excellent podcast so it's just extremely successful very down to earth person and he's you know he's the real deal folks.

1:16:44

So he's he's like this at all times.

You know there's not like a podcasting Nate and like a a business Nate and and a regular Nate.

You just get Nate.

So, you know, subscribe to the show, watch more of them.

Awesome if possible.

Thank you Nathan.

1:16:59

This was really beautiful.

I hope anyone who's interested wants to learn more.

I'm going to have links in the description, but this has been another wonderful episode of the Much loved podcast.

Much Love and everybody take care.